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AndrewJ That Young Knockout Kid from Washington, DC Since: May, 2009
That Young Knockout Kid
#126: Apr 27th 2011 at 10:25:05 AM

In my experience, work descriptions that gush are more common than work descriptions that complain. However, the tendency is for gushing to be fairly limited (i.e., several paragraphs of neutral description followed by a couple sentences of "Fun and original! Highly recommended that fans of X series/genre check it out!" and the like) whereas complaining grows out and takes over the whole thing.

We claim the land for the highlord, God bless the land and the hiiighlooord!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127: Apr 27th 2011 at 11:03:31 AM

[up] Right. After all, it's hardly unusual for a show to be troped by people who like it. Look at Dr Horribles Sing Along Blog for crying out loud, and bear in mind that I (and others) did a major effort on that page to make it conform with our current standards.

edited 27th Apr '11 11:03:49 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
arromdee Since: Jan, 2001
#128: Apr 27th 2011 at 1:44:22 PM

When I want to learn more about a work, I sometimes find TV Tropes more informative than Wikipedia. This is partly because of the informality, but also because of how opinionated it can be, which allows the wiki to call a spade a spade when need be, when Wikipedia would be hamstrung by its NPOV policy.

In some cases, knowing the audience reactions to a work are essential in learning about the work (to the extent that anything at all we say is essential). It really would give an incomplete impression of the Star Wars prequels if we didn't mention in a reasonably prominent place that people hate Jar-Jar, for instance.

Now, we can still say that in the article text, of course, but many uses of YMMV tropes are just alternate forms of presenting audience reactions that equally well could be in the article text.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#129: Apr 27th 2011 at 1:50:59 PM

If you want to know how people feel about a work, you go to the YMMV page. What's hard about that?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#130: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:07:39 PM

[up][up] & [up] Aaaaaand we're back to my theory again. Whee.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#131: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:11:19 PM

I don't believe that the catalogue tropes and catalogue works missions of the wiki are necessarily at odds. One cannot exist without the other, obviously, and even more than that, they are reciprocals of one another. Anyway, I'm very work-focused and I recognize the problem with keeping subjectives on main articles. I don't see anything inconsistent about this at all.

I'm not going to beat around the bush: If people come here to read each other's opinions about works on the main article, they are in the wrong place. Adapt or leave. We have places for that stuff; it's nobody's fault but your own if you refuse to use them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#132: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:30:21 PM

They are to a point, as I said. Cataloging tropes is only a subset of what fully and completely cataloging works would entail. If you put the latter as priority, you automatically are forced to reduce the priority of the former to make room for the other factors related to works.

If we were totally committed to cataloging works (and I don't think we should ever be to this degree), the YMMV split probably never would have happened the way it did, because we would want opinions (to a degree) on the main pages. They would be considered just as important as the tropes.

This is just rehashing the old argument though. Tropes are what we are about first and foremost, and I prefer it that way.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#133: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:39:55 PM

If people want to find out about the quality of a work, that's what the reviews and YMMV sections are for.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#134: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:40:36 PM

[up][up] Well, I mean cataloguing works in the context of their tropes. Tropes are what we are about. We want to know about works in terms of what tropes they use.

Works are, indeed, about more than tropes. But other sites cover that extensively. Just like We Are Not Game FA Qs, we are also not IMDB, Metacritic, Something Awful, or Wikipedia. We have exactly one thing that's unique: tropes. That's what we should focus on.

And yes, I recognize the repetitious nature of this argument, but it's worth elaborating.

edited 27th Apr '11 2:40:58 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#135: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:46:51 PM

[up][up][up][up]And here we see nice reason why people think this place is turning into orwellian wiki. "Adapt or leave". You are not allowed to disagree. If this is community wiki, peope should be allowed to disagree with changes, argue against them and complain. Why complain, you ask? Because that's all non-mods can do. By the time I head about YMMV move, it was in effect and all I could do about was to complain about it. When you are not in goverment, best you can do is voice your opinion.

Attitude "Anyone who argues/complains against chages is wrong and should GTFO" is wrong. Look this: if people complain this much, there is something wrong.

Silence of majority does not neccesary mean acceptance. Heck, I am still thinking whole YMMV move is unneccesary, yet what can I do? Start vandalizing? Throw a tantrum?

To better illustrate this, think TV tropes as a nation. Ed is the absolute ruler and mods serve as a government officials. If goverment makes law, as long as police(mods and such) enforce it with punishments, normla people can't do much other than comply. However, forcing people "Shut up and adapt" creates tension. Too much tension and we get riot.

If community tension is allowed to rise, we might actualy get riot here. People are already starting to claim that we are becoming Wikipedia-esque. It is not neccesary true and rules might have been there from the start, but change is happening so fast that people start to resist. They feel threatened. Aggresive campaing agaisnt subjectivty, opinions and snark are not helping. I know that you want them to be at "right locations" (reviews etc.), but it still makes some of us uneasy.

Also, to continue my nation metaphor(is that the right word?), thoe who voice ourselves here are the vocal minority. We might, or might not represent majority. As it is with political parties, people remember the most prominent spoke person, but behind that person is large group of people supporting him. Just because they are not shouting at front, doesn't mean they too have opininons. So claim that "small group complain" is not effective. It might small group to voice their opinion, but it does not neccesary mean they are alone with their opinion.

Anyway, this rant is going too far.

READ THIS BEFORE ANSWERING

I disagree with many wiki recent policy changes. However, I do as I am told because I like TV Tropes. I can be convinced that I am wrong. I am ready to listen counter arguments. All I ask is, that you do not jsut say "Don't complain and GTFO" just because I do not agree with you. Calling other troper for Tropers Law is not good way to shrug of complain. Like happened in the beging of this thread, these threads are usualy locked before they can move to legimate arguments. Kudos for Eddie for unlocking this thread and allowing argument to move to correct path. By locking threads and banning people you are only enforcing false image of Orwellian wiki.

edited 27th Apr '11 2:47:41 PM by Mandemo

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#136: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:47:05 PM

[up][up] Yep. We aren't here for the equivalent of one-stop shopping for information about fictional works, and I like it that way. If someone wants a website like that, none exists...yet. (Someone probably will figure this out eventually and make one.)

[up] And threatening the mods is a very very Bad Idea (TM).

edited 27th Apr '11 2:48:29 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#138: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:52:28 PM

Maybe I misread (English doesn't seem like your first language, which is understandable), but:

Too much tension and we get riot.

Seems to be skirting the line a bit, doesn't it?

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#139: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:56:51 PM

Basically, Mandemo, you're saying that if we fail to pander to the minority element who wants the wiki to be something it isn't, they'll throw a pissy fit and trash the place, or something. I don't listen to those arguments and neither does Eddie. As I said earlier, we refuse to be blackmailed into conceding control of the site's direction and focus.

Let me rephrase that "adapt or leave" statement to be less confrontational. If TV Tropes doesn't offer what you're looking for, we want you to go somewhere else that can satisfy your needs, not force this wiki into something it doesn't want to be.

[up][up][up] Honestly, given GIFT and its various aspects, I don't think it's possible to have a site that combines being informative with pandering to hatedoms. Hatedom is a plague that consumes everything it touches and makes it unfit for human interaction. Encyclopedia Dramatica recently discovered this.

edited 27th Apr '11 3:00:12 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#140: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:59:10 PM

If people really can't deal with the site because they can't share there opinion on it. They'll just have to find a differnt site.

[up]More or less ninja'd.

edited 27th Apr '11 2:59:55 PM by DrStarky

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#141: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:04:52 PM

[up][up] Agree with this, and it's Opinion Myopia alone that says otherwise when people claim that the pro-pointless whinging camp is in the majority - site usage statistics very much indicate to the contrary.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#142: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:06:42 PM

[up][up][up][up]Yeah, I am from Finland and my spellchecking program deserves bullet to the head. As for riot part, it was not ment to take literaly. It's sometimes hard to express yourself in foreing language, don't you agree?

[up][up][up]Yes and no. Both sides need to compromise. Telling people "Weare community, we talk about things!" and then telling them to get out because their opinion was wrong is not helping wiki.

By riot part I ment, that if community as whole starts to slowly feel that it is ignored, it can and will retort. Not neccesary by ruining wiki or vandalising, but I have seen enough sites to have their bones shaken by members throwing something expected at the mods. Can't neccesary say what might happen and is jsut my fear that too much tension between mods and community could case some sort of backlash, worse than so far. So far creating Mirror wiki and jsut bugs me sites have been very minor things.

If we are community driven, talk and listen to it. Perhaps move Wiki headlines to more prominent location, to be easier to see. For me, it's under huge ad on left side of my screen, location where I rarely look.

...This is going to be taken wrong, isn't it? Also, I need to take time and fix all typos in my original post. But not now, I need to catch some sleep.

Ninjas. Ninjas everywhere.

edited 27th Apr '11 3:08:01 PM by Mandemo

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#143: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:17:32 PM

I will be the first to say that the wiki headlines do need some work, although I doubt moving them is an easy option (ad revenue and all that).

One good idea might be, for starters, to have some kind of backlog of older news items for reading. Things tend not to stay up there all that long, so that could help. That's something for Tech Wishlist though.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#144: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:20:55 PM

We talking about making things more clear for newbie editors?

Because I'm all for making things more clear for newbie editors.

But we might not wanna do it in a thread like this.

Could we just lock this thread?

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#145: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:28:11 PM

...Why I am still here?

[up]Nope, we are talking about changes in wiki and what is (falsely) believed to be orwellian moderation. My suggetion of making wiki headline more clear could help people to notice when changes are planned/implented, instead of appearing out of blue. Of course, it would require people to read it, but making it more noticeble could make people to pay more attention to it.

I can say, when I browse TV tropes I look at the center/right or quick glance at top. On left, rarely because there is nothing that normaly interest me.

TorchicBlaziken Since: Feb, 2010
#146: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:30:53 PM

I think that instead of just locking threads saying that The Complainer Is Always Wrong, actually say why it's wrong. Some of the changes I don't like, but some of them I like. It balances itself out for me.

edited 27th Apr '11 3:31:27 PM by TorchicBlaziken

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#147: Apr 27th 2011 at 4:40:10 PM

It's not that The Complainer Is Always Wrong. It's that without something other than, "I don't like X," the complaint has no substance. Further, if the complaint is, "I don't like the direction the wiki is going," then the answer is, "too bad, because that's where it is going."

It's not that you don't have a voice. It's that if you go to the guy in charge of Ford and suggest that he start making Toyotas, there's really no point in having a discussion about that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#148: Apr 27th 2011 at 5:44:16 PM

There's nothing wrong with bringing up unpopular opinions, but it gets to the point where you just have to accept that you lost the battle and suck it up. The issue we have is with people who just keep endlessly complaining about stuff that's been decided on by discussion already and just won't let it go.

edited 27th Apr '11 5:45:25 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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RedheadForgotHisPassword Since: Dec, 1969
#149: Apr 27th 2011 at 6:21:06 PM

In my experience, work descriptions that gush are more common than work descriptions that complain. However, the tendency is for gushing to be fairly limited (i.e., several paragraphs of neutral description followed by a couple sentences of "Fun and original! Highly recommended that fans of X series/genre check it out!" and the like) whereas complaining grows out and takes over the whole thing.

I think that's because works that genuinely bad are less likely to have an audience, and therefore has less wiki magic going for it. If an obscure show's page was written by one single person who just wants to make mindless "X sucks" complaints, there's not a lot we can do about it.

Look at our pages for Sonic The Hedgehog 2006 and Haze. They're informative while acknowledging the games didn't exactly win Game Of The Year awards, and that's because so many people have played them.

edited 27th Apr '11 6:21:37 PM by RedheadForgotHisPassword

Scuttzer Since: Sep, 2010
#150: Apr 27th 2011 at 7:20:42 PM

Just dropping in to comment on the headlines idea:

Dear god yes make them more noticeable. I've been lurking for a couple of years and I never really noticed the headlines until I saw someone mention them on the forums.


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