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"Aggressive" atheism versus "gentle" atheism...

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BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#1001: Dec 6th 2013 at 3:36:22 PM

If you read up on the history of NATO activities to make sure their allies (and perceived neutrals) don't join ranks with the USSR you'll find that it makes for some pretty sobre reading. They carried out bombings in train stations and kidnapped prominent activists (and possibly the former Prime minister of Italy, Aldo Moro, though it has not been established that NATO was necessarily involved in that one.)

Anyway, you're right that the lumping of all Left-wing politicians with Communists and/or the USSR was never justified. That doesn't change the fact that that's how millions of people saw the world back then (and of course millions still see it so today.)

...I just realised how thoroughly off-topic this all is. Damn...

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1002: Dec 6th 2013 at 4:17:29 PM

Well, to tie it back to the topic, Objectivists are about as far from Communist as you can get, yet they were outspokenly atheistic and anti-Christian.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
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#1003: Dec 6th 2013 at 4:35:05 PM

Hence the weird attempt to try to make Sophia Lamb a Collectivist Christian to contrast against Andrew Ryan's atheist capitalist philosophy in bioshock 2. Not that christian socialists are unheard of in real-life.

edited 6th Dec '13 4:35:37 PM by joeyjojo

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1004: Dec 6th 2013 at 4:41:43 PM

Liberation Theology. Very interesting. Christopher Hitchens dismissively refers to them as "seeing Jesus as a dues-paying Marxist" or something like that. Christopher Hitchens, while often making valid points, is kind of an insulting, sneering jerk when Preaching to the Choir; given how often he gets religious folks talking to him and befriending him, one can only assume he knows not to be so rude all the time. Also, his understanding of Islam, in contrast with the depth of his Christian lore, leaves something to be desired.

</rant>

edited 6th Dec '13 4:42:15 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#1005: Dec 6th 2013 at 4:54:19 PM

[up][up] The original Christian church did have an "everything belongs to everyone in the community" thing going on. Or at least one or two branches of it.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1006: Dec 6th 2013 at 5:05:17 PM

[up]It also had a much harsher version of Confession. For one thing, it was public, and a once-in-a-lifetime deal. And the entire commuity got to give you crap for your confessed sins. Early Christianity was kind of an impractical, scary cult. Well, it still is an impractical, scary cult, but it used to be a fair bit more so.

edited 6th Dec '13 5:06:36 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#1007: Dec 6th 2013 at 5:25:38 PM

[up]You just said this:

Christopher Hitchens dismissively refers to them as "seeing Jesus as a dues-paying Marxist" or something like that. Christopher Hitchens, while often making valid points, is kind of an insulting, sneering jerk when Preaching to the Choir; given how often he gets religious folks talking to him and befriending him, one can only assume he knows not to be so rude all the time.

followed by this:

Early Christianity was kind of an impractical, scary cult. Well, it still is an impractical, scary cult, but it used to be a fair bit more so.

Don't you think there's a chance that both you and Hitchens were being so brief and to-the-point about your descriptions of a religious position for much the same effect? I don't think Hitchens' comment was in any way more rude than yours, anyway.

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1008: Dec 6th 2013 at 5:34:54 PM

Except what I said was true in the literal sense. What he said, however, sounds extremely unlikely, unless The Doctor was involved.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#1009: Dec 6th 2013 at 5:40:40 PM

Why is it unlikely? Liberation Theology was established well after Marx's ideas became widely known.

Or do you mean the thing about seeing Jesus as a Marxist? I think what's meant by that is that according to that movement, the ideas of Jesus were similar to those of Marx, making Jesus something of a Marxist. It's anachronistic, but that sort of thing gets said all the time. Is it really offensive to use a modern term to refer to a facet of an ideology or movement from the past?

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demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1010: Dec 6th 2013 at 5:59:38 PM

Jesus beliefs were inherently spiritual. That makes rather unmarxist...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1011: Dec 6th 2013 at 6:00:09 PM

[up][up]I don't know what he meant for sure, but I do know what he said. And it wasn't the first time he sacrificed accuracy for wit/snark.

[up]Jesus also promised that the poor (or was it the meek?) would inherit the earth, that the rich had an absurdly slim chance of being saved, that everyone should just give up their wealth and families and follow him, and he was a bit of an anti-commercialist revolutionary freedom fighter avant-la-lettre.

However, saying "the LT folk viewed him as a humble follower of Marx" is rather absurd. The inverse position, expressed by Nietzsche, that Marxism, especially in Escathology, was largely revamped Christianity and drew its mass appeal from addressing similar issues and making similar false promises, make a lot more sense. Sugarcandy Mountain, or Old Major's vision?

edited 6th Dec '13 6:06:36 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
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#1012: Dec 6th 2013 at 6:59:06 PM

I think you're missing the point by taking it too literally, but this tangent is also off-topic so I'll just drop it.

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1013: Dec 6th 2013 at 11:53:40 PM

Don't Marxist movements count as aggressive atheism?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1014: Dec 7th 2013 at 4:54:55 AM

They thought so.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
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#1015: Dec 7th 2013 at 5:02:00 AM

[up][up][up][up]It was the meek.

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1017: Dec 7th 2013 at 5:17:03 AM

[up][up][up]

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#1018: Dec 7th 2013 at 5:53:40 AM

[up]

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

Karl Marx on religion, most (in)famously, from his introduction to a planned Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, page 1 (he never got round to writing the rest).

In essence, Marx viewed religion as a tool of the ruling classes that was used to oppress the proletariat by giving them false hope of eternal glory in the next life and encouraging them to accept earthly suffering in expectation of a divine payout that would never come. To Marx, the meek don't inherit the earth - they inherit fuck all, after lives of breaking their backs down mines or in factories and mills producing for the bourgeoise. At the same time, he also saw religion as a protest against suffering: the human spirit demands happiness and reward, so the construction by the proletariat of a false context (ie, religion) in which suffering was rewarded, their hard work meant something to them, and in which they could become masters of their own fate was the only option in a world strangled by the parasitic capitalist class.

Marx ultimately concludes that the illusory happiness of faith must be replaced by the real happiness of equality:

"Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower."

His theory wasn't without foundation: in the historical context in which Contribution was written, religion was often very closely aligned with the status quo, and the status quo was of vast injustice, and, as the Industrial Revolution began, the dismantling of the old ways of life and the ancient rights of the rural proletariat (such as the Acts of Enclosure and the Highland Clearances). The Tsar, for instance, practically controlled the Russian Orthodox Church (so called caesaropapism). The French Catholic Church was closely wedded to the ancien regime and monarchism (and elements of it remained so until Vatican II). Much of the charitable work undertaken by religion served only to entrench dependency or poverty. In 1864, the Catholic church issued the reactionary Syllabus Errorum, condemning rationalism, liberalism, and socialism. The justification for the feudal system, which was still present in parts of Marx's native Germany, is explicitly religious: the King derives his right to rule from God, and everyone else derives their property from the king.

Of course, Marx also got a lot wrong about religion too: he failed to properly appreciate its role in bringing about change (a lot of abolitonism was religiously-inspired, for instance), its genuine charity, and the religious foundations of many early revolutionaries, such as those who argued during the English Civil War that they had natural, God-given rights to land etc.

Then, along came Lenin, who thought religion was entirely and completely shit, who viewed it as a malevolent influence on the proletariat, and declared that:

"All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class."

And hence came the state-enforced atheism of most Soviet (and thus Marxist-Leninist) states. Albania, North Korea, Laos, Cambodia, and China outright dismantled religion and tried to completely destroy it. Stalin tried, but brought the Russian Orthodox Church back into the fold to stir up the people to resist Operation Barbarossa, and most of the other Soviet states tried to make life difficult for believers in various other ways, violent or otherwise. Of course, suppression of alternative loyalties and belief systems is an important ingredient of totalitarianism, from the Roman deification of their Emperors to Hitler's "Positive Christianity".

That isn't to say that socialist anti-theism must take a violent or coercive character. Bukharin urged secularism and freedom of belief, arguing that Communism would destroy religion peacefully by out-maneuvering it in the war of ideas:

"But the campaign against the backwardness of the masses in this matter of religion, must be conducted with patience and considerateness, as well as with energy and perseverance. The credulous crowd is extremely sensitive to anything which hurts its feelings. To thrust atheism upon the masses, and in conjunction therewith to interfere forcibly with religious practices and to make mock of the objects of popular reverence, would not assist but would hinder the campaign against religion. If the church were to be persecuted, it would win sympathy among the masses, for persecution would remind them of the almost forgotten days when there was an association between religion and the defence of national freedom; it would strengthen the antisemitic movement; and in general it would mobilize all the vestiges of an ideology which is already beginning to die out."

Some strands of socialism accept Marx's critique of capitalism, but not his critique of religion. You can read more about them under the "religious socialism" section of the Socialism page.

edited 7th Dec '13 6:04:55 AM by Achaemenid

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1019: Dec 7th 2013 at 6:00:08 AM

...are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction...

Look at this arrogance. He anthropomorphizes an international political movement, and then puts words in its mouth, with a perfectly confident, final tone.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
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#1020: Dec 7th 2013 at 7:08:28 AM

Well, that's Lenin. He was one of the worst people to emerge from Socialist movements anywhere.

When Hitchens talks about Marx the point (usually) has something to do with the Marxist analysis of history, which he often said he couldn't abandon even though he had otherwise moved to the Right in politics. Ideas of class conflict, and of opposing ideologies clashing in a way that creates the centre of the next system (which again will change when it develops two clashing movements,) are at the centre of Marxist analysis of history.

So if Hitchens calls someone a Marxist it probably means that he thinks that person views society in terms of class; believes that society changes through the conflicts of classes; puts the emphasis on large groups of people, rather than individuals; and is in favour of taking down the upper classes and raising the standards of living for the lower classes.

That's generally what Marxism means, anyway.

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1021: Dec 7th 2013 at 9:11:57 AM

Would Jesus qualify, though?

And that Bkharin quote is totally awesome...

edited 7th Dec '13 9:20:49 AM by TheHandle

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#1022: Dec 7th 2013 at 9:21:21 AM

Depends on how you interpret: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" If it is interpreted as obeying earthly authorities than no, he was no Marxist.

demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1023: Dec 7th 2013 at 9:22:25 AM

Clearly no. He puts individuals above classes. Although he recognized different classes, he clearly didn't use class as his primary filter. One's relationship to God and his kingdom were his primary filter. He did not call for the overthrow of the upper classes (he thought the eschaton would take care of that). His primary message in regards to the means of production was "give up worldly desires and live a spiritual life." He seems to have derived most of his philosophical outlook from what was at that time a well established tradition of Greek and Hebrew asceticism.

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BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
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#1024: Dec 7th 2013 at 9:41:50 AM

You could give Jesus some Marxist points for focusing on the lower classes, and dreaming about a new system where people wouldn't be slaves to the circumstances of their birth. Personally I wouldn't call him a Marxist because he didn't advocate for an active effort to abolish the class system in this life (believing in a next life and placing one's hopes in that is in itself a departure from Marxism) but there are some connections between the ideology attributed to Jesus and that established by Marx and Engels.

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#1025: Dec 7th 2013 at 10:39:49 AM

Do we have any actual "Marxists" avant-la-lettre that predate eighteenth-century Socialism and such. And would they count as Ur-Example or as Unbuilt Trope?

In Christopher Hitchens' book God Is Not Great, he talks a fair deal about Ancient Atheists (or, at the very least, Ancient Skeptics). While those tend to show up a lot in contemporary movies set in Antiquity, I used to think they were a case of the authors projecting themselves unto their characters and making them seem cool and world-weary, or something. Still, it's interesting that, since times immemorial, so much as openly questioning the established mythologies could get you Chalice'd at the very least

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