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"Aggressive" atheism versus "gentle" atheism...

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#951: Dec 5th 2013 at 11:28:15 AM

[up]He is, I think, politely suggesting that you might want to admit that the statement was wrong, that your stating it was pointless, that you should stop defending it, and that you're boring everyone with your obtuse and mind-numbing method of debate. You're certainly boring me, and I would request that you stop doing so, thank you.

EDIT: I do believe one can be cheerfully Carl-Sagan-ny about atheism while being aggressive, or at least very assertive. Example: a patient says to a doctor "Thank God I was cured." The Doctor actually displays his mild annoyance; "Excuse me? Who spent five hours mending your guts and curing your ailments? That was me, wasn't it? If it had been left to God to decide, like in the middle ages, you would have died for sure. And what about all the nurses and experts that helped me perform the operation? What about all the doctors and scientists who built up on each other's research to even devise the cure I used on you? What about all the people that sustain us and make our research and practice possible? Do not thank God, dear patient, thank us, thank humanity for coming forward with ways of extending your life with what could be decades, decades where there is more to do than can ever be done, more to see than can ever be seen! Or don't! Just live, dear patient; this new life that we have given you, live it out fully and proudly. That, dear patient, is all the thanks that are needed."

Why did that sound with David Tennant's voice in my head?

edited 5th Dec '13 11:37:22 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#952: Dec 5th 2013 at 11:48:19 AM

That doctor is an A#Hole. I like your own approach better.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#953: Dec 5th 2013 at 11:51:24 AM

Well, the Tenth Doctor could be said to be that, but the story was a bit of a Morality Kitchen Sink, especially if you take Fridge Logic into account. Which is of course something no-one should ever do when watching Doctor Who.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
NoNameGiven from Nowhere Since: Jul, 2013
#954: Dec 5th 2013 at 11:53:54 AM

Btw, there is nothing obtuse about my statement, it's short, it's direct, it delivers the message and if you're bothered by my method of debating then that's entirely your problem.

Although you do have a point with what you said there above.

I can picture Hugh Laurie saying that. Just a little bit more... dickish.

edited 5th Dec '13 11:54:53 AM by NoNameGiven

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death itself may die."
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#955: Dec 5th 2013 at 11:56:00 AM

@The Handle I think ethics is largely based on two things. Empathy and reason. The golden rule would condemn pedophilia, it would condemn misogynie it would condemn slavery. They just used excuses and othering (women/blacks/children/the guys from the other village/animals are fundamentally different and thus empathy is canceled out). The human mind excels in macking fallacious excuses for why we can oppress others but not vice versa. But fallacious they remain nonetheless.

I think polyamory, veganism and the non-proliferation of weapons are all very valid points.[lol] I think we should be judged for this things. (Non-vegan diets get a pass if circumstances don't allow for it.)

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#956: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:00:23 PM

[up]My point is, they didn't know they were doing that. A lot of the time, moral problems are ignored until someone notices and points them out. Or they are obfuscated and disguised as "okay" and "righteous". Have you ever read anything by Ayn Rand or by the Chicago school of economics? How about this piece?

Now if a parent may own his child (within the framework of non-aggression and runaway-freedom), then he may also transfer that ownership to someone else. He may give the child out for adoption, or he may sell the rights to the child in a voluntary contract. In short, we must face the fact that the purely free society will have a flourishing free market in children. Superficially, this sounds monstrous and inhuman. But closer thought will reveal the superior humanism of such a market. For we must realize that there is a market for children now, but that since the government prohibits sale of children at a price, the parents may now only give their children away to a licensed adoption agency free of charge.[12] This means that we now indeed have a child-market, but that the government enforces a maximum price control of zero, and restricts the market to a few privileged and therefore monopolistic agencies. The result has been a typical market where the price of the commodity is held by government far below the free-market price: an enormous “shortage” of the good. The demand for babies and children is usually far greater than the supply, and hence we see daily tragedies of adults denied the joys of adopting children by prying and tyrannical adoption agencies. In fact, we find a large unsatisfied demand by adults and couples for children, along with a large number of surplus and unwanted babies neglected or maltreated by their parents. Allowing a free market in children would eliminate this imbalance, and would allow for an allocation of babies and children away from parents who dislike or do not care for their children, and toward foster parents who deeply desire such children. Everyone involved: the natural parents, the children, and the foster parents purchasing the children, would be better off in this sort of society.[13]

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
NoNameGiven from Nowhere Since: Jul, 2013
#957: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:15:38 PM

(sigh) Okay, I was talking in worldwide therms, atheism and religion will never co-exist peacefully in worldwide therms.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death itself may die."
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#958: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:17:04 PM

I would make difference in condemnig an action in the past and the people from the past. Slavery was always wrong. However, an ancient roman conducting it is less at fault than someone today holding someone as a slave. Simply because the information that slavery is bad for those involved wasn't as easily available and most people tend to follow the herd in thinking what's good and evil.

And I'm not sure what you want to say with the example.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#959: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:20:19 PM

I still think you're making sweeping statements without justifying them. Let's try this: what do you mean by "coexist"?

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
NoNameGiven from Nowhere Since: Jul, 2013
#960: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:24:24 PM

[up]...Are you serious? Are you guys serious? Everyone? What is so hard to understand about what I said? Co-exist means exactly what you think it means. What is it so hard to understand?

The world will never come to an agreement in terms of religion.

edited 5th Dec '13 12:29:14 PM by NoNameGiven

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death itself may die."
imadinosaur Since: Oct, 2011
#961: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:26:37 PM

Your statement is perfectly understandable.

You have provided no evidence to back it up, and it goes directly contrary to my personal experience (that atheists and religious people can coexist peacefully quite well, thank you).

And what on Earth is a 'therm'?

edited 5th Dec '13 12:27:45 PM by imadinosaur

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
NoNameGiven from Nowhere Since: Jul, 2013
#962: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:27:21 PM

[up]Yeah, as long as they don't talk about religion.

Will the whole world ever stop fighting about religion? Will they ever come to an agreement and the fights based on religion stop? That's what I meant.

edited 5th Dec '13 12:28:49 PM by NoNameGiven

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death itself may die."
imadinosaur Since: Oct, 2011
#963: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:30:08 PM

What? I've got into arguments with a priest over religion before, and been able to sit and drink with her half an hour later.

The key is not being an asshole about it.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
NoNameGiven from Nowhere Since: Jul, 2013
#964: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:31:35 PM

Yes, but I meant in terms of worldwide. The whole world. In no circumstances will the world stop fighting about religion.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death itself may die."
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#965: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:38:20 PM

Once you've defined things in such a broad way as "worldwide", you could say that of anything. The whole world won't co-exist peacefully full stop. Even if we somehow manage to eliminate nations, there'll still be someone who murders their spouse for infidelity, or someone who manages to find an ideological gloss to apply to their own sociopathy.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#966: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:39:50 PM

Personally, I find that statement very hard to agree with.

It might be possible to reach a point where these disagreements will never go beyond words, and in which public policy and social rules are based on nonreligious discourses. If you add a system where everyone gets taught about multiple religions as a matter of history and culture (rather than as statements of fact, which is how denominational religious education tends to work,) the ensuing cultures should be able to have a diversity of religious (and nonreligious) views without conflict.

Sure, that's a high goal; but there was a time when people thought people of different races, or people who speak different languages, could never coexist; yet there have, throughout history, been regions where such diverse groups have actually been able to coexist, to some (IMO impressive) extent.

My prediction is that there will come a point where religion is almost entirely a matter of cultural history - where all religious buildings will be used for something else (hopefully many of them will become museums.) I don't expect this to happen any time soon, though.

There might still be groups that hold religious beliefs, but I suspect that they will be seen the same way as new age enthusiasts are seen now - as a fringe group that loves to pour surprising amounts of money on the target of their obsession, thus ensuring the survival of that market; but ultimately unable to expand with lasting success to the mainstream.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#967: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:40:02 PM

You probably come from a parallel world. Do tell us how you've established a communication channel.

As for my example, I'm not too sure myself. I've actually met doctors who've expressed this emotion (to me in private, not to their patients) and I was trying to summarize, and represent an "aggressiveness" that isn't about mocking religion or sneering at it, but about stating facts and valuing human endeavour.

Though, honestly, I didn't expect him to come off as a jerk. In my head he was wearing a warm expression and a kind, soft-yet-impassioned voice throughout. I suppose I need to improve my writing skills.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#968: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:41:49 PM

To be honest, some days I wonder if we'll ever purge the asshole fringe myself, but you gotta have hope that it's at least possible.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#969: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:44:16 PM

They won't be "purged", man, that's Kira thinking. They'll calm down and come around. I had a jerk phase as well, back when I had just a-verted, and looked back and thought that others could be saved right now when they were needlessly hurting themselves and others. This has caused me to be impatient and harsh. Experience dissuaded me from being too hasty or straightforward about this.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#970: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:46:50 PM

I didn't see anything offensive about your doctor, either. If I were a doctor (or working for an organisation that delivers humanitarian aid or some such) and someone thanked God for my work I would be mildly offended, as well. I wouldn't refuse them service the next time they came asking, but I can't guarantee that I would be able to maintain a smile for the duration of the help I'm giving them, and I would almost certainly complain to my coworkers.

If the patient asked me if I considered the aid I had given them a miracle from God I would ask them if they had considered praying, instead of seeking medical help, in further emergencies. Of course I'd tell them that they should continue to seek professional medical help, rather than relying on prayer, but I might encourage them to figure out why I want to advice them to seek professional medical help rather than merely praying for a miracle.

Some patients might be upset but if they want to establish a standard that it's OK to shove their religion in my face immediately after I've helped them I wouldn't feel too bad if I stooped to their level.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#971: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:49:35 PM

What about "Thank God you were here to help me?" tongue

soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#972: Dec 5th 2013 at 12:53:09 PM

I think what NNG is trying to say is that two ideologies where one holds to A and ones holds to Not A can be in agreement on logical structures depending on the existence of A.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#973: Dec 5th 2013 at 1:27:35 PM

I don't know, man. If a doctor talked to me like that, I would glare at them the same way I would glare at someone trying to police my grammar.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#974: Dec 5th 2013 at 1:38:40 PM

Well, when I said "Thank God", I meant something longer and more profuse. Not just the thoughtless idiom.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#975: Dec 5th 2013 at 1:44:18 PM

Yeah I mean there's that whole thing where people should not judge others based on how they swear because they're not really voluntary. People who are not religious use religious swears all the time and people who have a different religion than the dominant will often use the dominant one to swear.


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