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A Tutorial On Giving Well Rounded Critiques

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Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#51: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:09:39 PM

Okay. Let me clarify.

This tutorial is for people WHO ACTIVELY WANT TO IMPROVE.

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#52: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:11:29 PM

Edited out for rudeness.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:59:39 PM by CyganAngel

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#53: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:12:30 PM

You could have just not replied to this if you weren't going to use any of my advice.

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#54: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:13:33 PM

Edited out for rudeness.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:59:50 PM by CyganAngel

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Cakman READ THE 13TH SAGE. from whence he came. Since: Feb, 2010
READ THE 13TH SAGE.
#55: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:13:42 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong. If a person critiques like that, they're doing a good job. But the problem is that you're asking too much. Beggers can't be choosers, and if you need criticizing, then you are a begger.

See, it's a circular argument we're having. If you're asking for critiquing, you can't expect the person to go the extra mile and make it pleasant for you, especially if they have a lot of material to get through. And on that same thought, I know that I have the opposite problems with my writing- I often times desperately want someone to tell me more than "oh, yeah, it's great! I loved x! I loved y!" I want a person to say "I hated the way x did z. I find y a pretentious prick, and you know that reoccurring joke you keep doing? Stop it. It's more aggravating than it is funny." That way, it's like they're taking pruning sheers to my work, cutting the dead leaves off and allowing me to work on what was bad.

My only goal in life is to ensure that Mousa dies of a stress-induced heart attack by the age of 23. READ THIS
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#56: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:15:57 PM

Having a balanced perspective is necessary because one can use the elements that do work as a measuring stick against the flaws. And perhaps you liked some element the actual writer thought was just okay? It's important to make the qualities as clear as the deficiencies so the writer of the work can consider your criticism in context of their whole skillset.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#57: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:16:52 PM

THIS IS FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GO THE EXTRA MILE.

If you are not someone who cares, DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT.

And while my tone could have used work, all I said was "This method is less likely to cause A GODDAMN RUCKUS".

JESUS CHRIST.

Cakman READ THE 13TH SAGE. from whence he came. Since: Feb, 2010
READ THE 13TH SAGE.
#58: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:17:57 PM

But there's a difference between "Oh, I really liked this aspect, so let me let them know about it," and "Okay, I didn't like this aspect, so how can I let them know without hurting their feelings."

Leradny, first of all, calm down. You're getting angry at assholes on the internet. I think the problem comes from the usage of the word "improve." I think that your method is quite a nice method, and makes people feel nice, but that doesn't necessarily make it an improvement.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:20:23 PM by Cakman

My only goal in life is to ensure that Mousa dies of a stress-induced heart attack by the age of 23. READ THIS
QQQQQ from Canada Since: Jul, 2011
#59: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:19:21 PM

Perhaps we all try listening to each other for once, instead of waiting for our turn to talk?

edited 15th Apr '11 8:21:05 PM by QQQQQ

BetsyandtheFiveAvengers Since: Feb, 2011
#60: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:22:14 PM

^ As the person that just got ignored twice (and going for a third) time, I think that's about right.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:23:14 PM by BetsyandtheFiveAvengers

Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#61: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:22:16 PM

..upon rereading my last post, it has occurred to me that today is not the best day I've had. So. Sorry if I'm being dumb and capslocking all over the place.

Cakman READ THE 13TH SAGE. from whence he came. Since: Feb, 2010
READ THE 13TH SAGE.
#62: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:22:32 PM

Eh, don't worry about it. I get the frustration. And I think your method may very well be the best for some people. Many people need that positive reenforcement to improve their work.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:24:13 PM by Cakman

My only goal in life is to ensure that Mousa dies of a stress-induced heart attack by the age of 23. READ THIS
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#63: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:24:11 PM

This seems like... well, I would class the formula laid out here as a 'critique', while the less formalised, less neutral things are 'advice' or 'comments'. A critique might take more effort and be more balanced, but I'm happy to recieve either about my work, whatever the person reading/looking at my stuff has time for.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:24:40 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
QQQQQ from Canada Since: Jul, 2011
#65: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:24:49 PM

If you wish to resolve this disagreement, Cakman, Cygan — I suggest you try dropping your dogmatic attitudes, if for a second. Drop the belief that you are right. Listen to what we have to say and understand it. It's fucking irritating if we're going in circles at each other.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:28:51 PM by QQQQQ

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#66: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:25:42 PM

Edited out for rudeness.

edited 15th Apr '11 9:00:06 PM by CyganAngel

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Cakman READ THE 13TH SAGE. from whence he came. Since: Feb, 2010
READ THE 13TH SAGE.
#67: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:27:24 PM

@Loni Sure, but critiques are normally essay-length. We're technically all using the word wrong. So fuck us all.

At the same time, though, I think that it does get kind of dangerous posting this as the "guidelines," only because it opens the possibility for "Oh, but your review of my work wasn't neutral enough" comments and whatnot.

QQQQQ, you guys keep saying that. I don't understand what you're getting at. I am admitting that you are right in certain aspects. You're using that as a crutch. So basically, when you said that we should all listen to each other more, you were only referring to the opposing side in the argument?

I apologize if that was across the line, but I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm not sayng you're absolutely wrong.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:30:09 PM by Cakman

My only goal in life is to ensure that Mousa dies of a stress-induced heart attack by the age of 23. READ THIS
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#68: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:27:52 PM

'Positive reinforcement' isn't exactly the point here — balance is. If you cannot express what didn't work in relation to what did work, all the author of the work has is a half-image of where their work might stand.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#69: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:31:50 PM

This whole argument seems mainly about semantics. Nobody is saying that the formula in the original post is a bad thing, and nobody is suggesting that it should be the only type of feedback allowed.

Be not afraid...
Cakman READ THE 13TH SAGE. from whence he came. Since: Feb, 2010
READ THE 13TH SAGE.
#70: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:31:51 PM

@Madass Alex But what are you putting your work on the internet for? Do you want people to tell you what doesn't work, or do you want them to assess your work as a whole? When I put it up, I want to skip the fluff, and have people say "This works." or "This doesn't work."

HEY I JUST REALIZED! CYGAN ANGEL! LONI JAY IS FROM AUSTRALIA TOO! YOU GUYS SHOULD HANG OUT!

edited 15th Apr '11 8:33:10 PM by Cakman

My only goal in life is to ensure that Mousa dies of a stress-induced heart attack by the age of 23. READ THIS
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#71: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:34:16 PM

... do you mean hang out in real life, or on Tvtropes? If the latter, we kinda do already. If the former, she's quite a few hours away from me.

Be not afraid...
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#72: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:34:17 PM

@ Post 45: Off-topic pedophile...

The problem with turning the OP into a So You Want To page is whatever to use the template or not.

Oh, and the agruing is getting a little tired. I don't really see the point of it now.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:35:29 PM by chihuahua0

EldritchBlueRose The Puzzler from A Really Red Room Since: Apr, 2010
The Puzzler
#73: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:34:41 PM

Q-Cat you are a genius. smile

Now back to me being me...

What do we want from the feedback of our work? Should we give our observations the same way we want it from others? Why or why not?

Also why do we want a certain kinds of feedback?

Has ADD, plays World of Tanks, thinks up crazy ideas like children making spaceships for Hitler. Occasionally writes them down.
juancarlos11 Since: Aug, 2011
#74: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:35:16 PM

Pointing out too many negatives is discouraging! But being too positive and pointing out only positives breeds complacency. If only there was some way to balance the scales. Like, say, having both of these things in the same post.

Sorry, but I disagree.

First of all and most importantly, every single critique and opinion in here is subjective. The opinions expressed on them shouldn't be held to any standards except logic and common sense.

Now, don't get me wrong, the content is one thing, how the ontent is worded is another. And a very important one. Just because you don't like some element in an story, doesn't mean you have to go crazy, all caps, bolding everything on it. Be careful, clever and nice. A flaw in a story isn't the end of the world.

And now, the really important part here: reviews and critiques can be neutral. They're opinions. They're supposed to be positive and/or negative. Do they have to be as objective as possible? Yes. But that doesn't mean you have to gloss over negative aspects in order to not come off as rude. Nor gloss over positive factors to not come over as a softie.

As for the author: It's really important for the author to understand that this is nothing but an opinion. It's in his hands to either listen to it or don't. Ask for clarifications. But never, under any circumstances attack the reviewer in question. It's uncalled for. Neither the review itself.

It's not exactly naive. And it can happen. But it's tough. And definetly worthwhile.

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