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On the existence of objectively excellent texts

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JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#26: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:31:16 PM

No I meant the one by the BBC done aaaaages ago, with Ian Holm as Frodo.

It could also mean that people don't neccesarily enjoy something just because lots of other people in the past enjoyed them. For instance I should imagine that a large amount of people probably threw things during Shakespeare performances.

edited 9th Apr '11 3:32:49 PM by JosefBugman

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#27: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:32:27 PM

Ah. Haven't listened to that one yet. I will need a set of that thing too...To go into my Tolkien collection. I need lots of shit for that really.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
kashchei Since: May, 2010
#28: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:32:52 PM

I'm more likely to conclude that Karalora is hell-bent on finding nothing worthwhile in assigned reading than sixty or so books having no merit whatsoever.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#29: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:34:50 PM

Like I said on the other topic, I mostly agree with her.

Moby Dick specifically has too much symbolism and not enough plot.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:35:10 PM

Moving the Goalposts or something; no one's saying the books have no merit. They're saying that the importance of a book is not equivalence to a book being objectively excellent.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#31: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:36:04 PM

[up][up][up] Well, you have to admit that with a lot of the "classics", you're not going to get anything out of them if you don't know the societal context. It's hard to classify something as "enduring" if you have to have a history lecture to understand it.

edited 9th Apr '11 3:36:12 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
khamul Since: Oct, 2009
#32: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:38:51 PM

A minor question, Rott, but if classics are taken to be works that have had a large influence on a large number of people through time, would something like the Kalevala qualify, even though it was only compiled into a book from oral traditions 200 years ago?

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:39:30 PM

Come over to my place sometime, kashchei. You'll see dozens to hundreds of books that I considered worthwhile enough to keep for future reading instead of donating them to the library after the first run-through. Admittedly, a lot of them are non-fiction. Maybe it is the difference between being assigned something to read and choosing it myself, but it's not like I've never enjoyed a book that someone else recommended. And it's not like I never tried reading "classics" after I was out of school. I still hated them.

On the subject of Shakespeare, do not get me started on Shakespeare. I've seen literary scholars openly admit that he intentionally wrote cheap entertainment for the masses of his time and place, and in the very next sentence declare his works timeless masterpieces while dismissing the cheap entertainment for the masses of our time and place as tripe. If that doesn't prove that I'm onto something...

edited 9th Apr '11 3:44:07 PM by Karalora

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#34: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:39:42 PM

It is the responsibility of the instructors to provide such context (which, in my experience, doesn't take more than one lesson if done right), but there are still many works which clarify the context themselves, or which are universal enough not to need any profound understanding of the social forces at work in the author's time.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:41:04 PM

Burden of proof that objectively excellent texts exists lays on the individual proposing that, indeed, they do. This starts with a decent definition of Objectively Excellent.

Before we get that, I really don't see any reason to criticize Karalora's dismissal of such a content, so much as to say that it is fundamentally missing the point, by addressing a criteria she perceives to be argued that has not been argued, as there has been no clear argument.

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#37: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:42:44 PM

For the record "A Christmas Carol" was a cheap, money grabber made solely to pay for a few meals. Guess what it is now. Shakespeare may have written cheap entertainment, but some of that had enough merit to become memorable and have quite a bit of meaning behind it.

The reason for which a book is made should not have any effect on its excellence.

edited 9th Apr '11 3:43:53 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#38: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:43:20 PM

Yeah, I like Shakespeare!

Well, most of Shakespeare, anyway.

Alichains Since: Aug, 2010
#39: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:43:55 PM

[up][up]A cheap money grabber that is the inspiration for a great many cheap money grabbing Christmas Specials?

edited 9th Apr '11 3:44:03 PM by Alichains

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#40: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:47:14 PM

"On the subject of Shakespeare, do not get me started on Shakespeare. I've seen literary scholars openly admit that he intentionally wrote cheap entertainment for the masses of his time and place, and in the very next sentence declare his works timeless masterpieces while dismissing the cheap entertainment for the masses of our time and place as tripe. If that doesn't prove that I'm onto something..."

Please get started on Shakespeare. I'd be thrilled to hear it. For one, he wrote for the King's Men, who performed, you may have guessed it, for the king. The fact that the masses got to see Shakespeare's plays does not mean that he did not primarily write with his patrons' interests in mind.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:49:22 PM

I am dismayed to see that everyone has latched onto this red herring of "intent" and how "cheap" a work is or isn't. How that leads at all to objective excellence is beyond me...

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#42: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:49:52 PM

You mean ol' Bill found formulas that the nobles and the commoners liked?

In this day and age, we call that pandering to the Lowest Common Denominator. By which I mean it only applies to stuff made in this day and age. It was okay when ol' Bill did it, because he's been dead for going on 400 years.

edited 9th Apr '11 3:51:44 PM by Karalora

Alichains Since: Aug, 2010
#43: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:51:19 PM

Ha Ha. Objectively Excellent. There's no such thing. There's objectively influential, but after that, the YMMV kicks in.

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#44: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:52:07 PM

Would you like to talk about a specific text, Karalora, instead of throwing blanket statements around?

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#45: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:52:08 PM

[up][up] /thread

edited 9th Apr '11 3:52:14 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#46: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:59:19 PM

Excuse me? I disliked all those books. Why would I want to talk about any of them specifically?

edited 9th Apr '11 3:59:59 PM by Karalora

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#47: Apr 9th 2011 at 3:59:24 PM

[up][up]Nope, I already said that a while ago, and Tomu said it before I did.

Didn't end the thread those times.

edited 9th Apr '11 3:59:33 PM by BlackHumor

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#48: Apr 9th 2011 at 4:00:09 PM

"Burden of proof that objectively excellent texts exists lays on the individual proposing that, indeed, they do. This starts with a decent definition of Objectively Excellent.

Before we get that, I really don't see any reason to criticize Karalora's dismissal of such a content, so much as to say that it is fundamentally missing the point, by addressing a criteria she perceives to be argued that has not been argued, as there has been no clear argument."

I'm criticizing Karalora's knee-jerk dismissal of all classic, as though she is the only one out there with a brain and other equally intelligent people haven't read these works and found merit in them. It's arrogant to the utmost, and her cheerful dismissal of Shakespeare (and other authors not explicitly mentioned but present in the discussion by virtue of being part of the canon) without even bothering to provide any concrete criticism or acknowledge his skill is simply obnoxious.

"Excuse me? I disliked all those books. Why would I want to talk about any of them specifically?"

Because without establishing that you're actually competent to discuss any of them, your like or dislike have no merit?

edited 9th Apr '11 4:01:30 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49: Apr 9th 2011 at 4:01:12 PM

There's something deeply hypocritical about acknowledging that there's no such thing as Objective Excellence because of a failure of definition, and then going on to argue why specific examples don't meet the criteria. The entire thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth :/

^Oh, well, if you're just criticizing Kara's tastes, take it to another thread, 'cause that's not the topic.

edited 9th Apr '11 4:01:44 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#50: Apr 9th 2011 at 4:03:01 PM

Being thread-police or a highly emotive commentator isn't the topic either, Tomu. I am, incidentally, not discussing her tastes at all. I'm discussing her willingness to utterly denigrate a work without saying anything concrete about it, instead relying on an aggrandizement of her own intellect to serve as her proof. I'M SUPER SMART AND I DIDN'T LIKE IT, THEREFORE IT'S SHIT is not much of a compelling argument, so I'm disputing her right to make it.

edited 9th Apr '11 4:05:08 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

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