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Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#9776: Mar 25th 2021 at 10:47:38 AM

I mean I did say unintentionally for a reason. I am not fully blaming Whedon. Like I can buy that the studio told him to change a lot. Like get rid of Darkseid and add more humor. But seriously why change it from Lois being exited he's talking again to him smelling good. That doesn't really seem like something the studio would mandate.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 25th 2021 at 12:52:16 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#9777: Mar 25th 2021 at 10:50:22 AM

[up][up] It feels more like a writing choice than Zack specifically trying to fill in a plot hole, cuz as you said, the speed force is as good an explanation as any.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 25th 2021 at 5:51:08 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#9778: Mar 25th 2021 at 11:07:27 AM

I do think it's important to compare apples to apples. Among streaming service first movies, this is keeping pace with some of the most popular material that has been released. That doesn't mean WB had a guaranteed billion dollar movie back in 2017 or even today, but there is a sense of Vindicated by History in that what they were aiming for was better received than what was previously given.

For me personally, I like the tonal differences in this film. compared to the MCU. With them I get the feeling that they take joy in humiliating their characters in the name of relatability. Ant Man gets little respect, Rhodey is always cut out of doing the cool stuff, Spider-Man faceplants doing casual webslinging. Justice League just treated their characters with more dignity, which greatly serviced the Flash but especially Cyborg.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#9779: Mar 25th 2021 at 11:26:07 AM

[up] Like, I'm not entirely sure if Snyder "Gets" the characters he's writing, but I do get the sense that whatever he "thinks" the characters are, he respects that.

Kaze ni Nare!
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#9780: Mar 25th 2021 at 12:39:28 PM

With the MCU the tone seems to be "These are people who happen to have powers." They are for the most part Human and we as the audience can relate to that, yes they stumble and flail about because...that's part of being human, we fail, we fall but we get back up again, that's part of the reason they are HEROES, they get up and go forward because that's who they are, they are Good People who happen to have powers and they use those powers because they Want to Help People.

Snyder? Snyder seems to take the path these characters are not 'as human' as we are, they are Above All That. Note the monolog that Silas gives Vic about what he is now is to list all the really really bad things that he can now do, launching nukes, playing with bank accounts ect. But that Victor is a hero because he resists the temptation to do bad things. Note...he's not a hero because he has power and decides to help people, he's a hero because he doesn't go off the deep end and destroy the world.

Snyder seems to revel in telling us that we should be fearful and respectful of beings like the Justice League because they are just one 'bad day' from blowing us all up...as shown in the Knightmare sequence. In fact that sequence just drives it home that the League coming together and saving the day is not the happy hopeful ending, the world is not a better place and despite the League coming together, the world will get worse thanks to Superman going off the deep end.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#9781: Mar 25th 2021 at 12:44:35 PM

[up][up][up]In way the MCU is the tone oposite of the comic marvel universe: in the comic is often said is darker, more down to earth and with hero more flawed but in the MCU much of those flawed are cut out like tony alcholism and is always made to be as entretaing and safe as it can be, DCCU thanks to sydner and ayer(also joker) is seen as edgy and more experimental.

[up]Well remenber that it was one part of many, in sydner plans Bruce dies in the end, the Diana become embassador of the world, cyborg become a tecnogod and repair himself to look like himself and so on but zack seen to really go into the whole "world finest" thing.

Edited by unknowing on Mar 25th 2021 at 3:46:25 PM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#9782: Mar 25th 2021 at 12:49:48 PM

As far as the comics go, Marvel USED to be the darker one and DC USED to be the more lighthearted one, to the point where it got commented on during the JLA / Avengers crossover. The Marvel Earth was presented as an outright Crapsack World to the Justice League, whereas the Avengers thought that the people on DC Earth must've been under some sort of mind control, as there is no way they could be that happy.

But in recent years, the positions got somewhat reversed, where basically every second DC comics attempts to replicate the whole "Dark, gritty and realistic" tone of Batman and co. As for Marvel, because of the comics always moving closer to the current films due to success and all that, it got much more lighthearted as a result, due to the MCU being this.

Edited by Forenperser on Mar 25th 2021 at 8:56:33 PM

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#9783: Mar 25th 2021 at 12:54:06 PM

Also the way MCU are is become the default tone for movies to be: lighthearted, very comedy oriented, with chararter with a big flawed but endering(one comon critic is the overused of "jerk who stop being a jerk") a whatever villian and strong continuity, to the point that DCCU seen to have bounce thanks to more lighthearted films, is not uncomon to said shazam, aquaman and wonder woman "save" DCCU.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#9784: Mar 25th 2021 at 12:58:17 PM

Yeah that was his original plan, which has a good chance of never happening.

While I credit Snyder for 'sticking to his vision' and leaving his film intact I can criticize him for it and saying it was a really BAD idea for various reasons.

We don't know if the story will continue period, it wrecks the perfectly good ending you just had, and its just Bad Storytelling Form to pull this kind of crap, it's emotional blackmail of your audience.

If this was back in 2017 with WB stating that yes JL would have a Snyder-Helmed Sequel to be released in 2018-19 then this kind of ending would be just fine. But since it's no longer 2017, the WB has moved on from this vision, and there is no guarantee for a satisfying conclusion...and Snyder KNEW THAT when this was announced...its overindulgence at best, and bad form at worst

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#9785: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:04:50 PM

[up][up][up] Granted Marvel has an issue where its heroes tend to act like absolute assholes and garbage people.

Civil War II and Secret Empire wasn't even that long ago.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#9786: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:04:57 PM

[up][up]I mean, zack made clear there wasnt any sequels so he made the movie acording to how it would be made, that was pretty much the deal as it is.

But taking about themes, one it always repeat is the "man vs god" as it happen a lot in his films: in 300, leonidas made bleed jerxes, shatter the idea of his divinity, in watchman ozymandias outsmart a god(Dr manhattan who by all purpose is the closest thing as one), by using him as weapon and them force him to go with his plan, here Batman beat superman(the god) and he stop not by overpowing batman but by showing he was human after all in his heart(and therefore, he was becomign the murder of his parent) and no soon after that, Superman become "human" and sacrifice agains doomsday, who is the god here, hell lex problem is that he try to defied superman so he can kill in the end and if his plan bruce or superman would kill darksaid, going back to the whole "killing a god".

Maybe is another reason why this version god better reviews than others, his "heroes as gods" stik feel more in place with chararter like the new gods.

Edited by unknowing on Mar 25th 2021 at 4:05:19 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#9787: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:11:22 PM

[up][up] Correct, but it's not like DC is any better at that front.

I like to call this thing the "Crisis Crossover Syndrome".

Heroes holding the Idiot Ball and Jerkass Ball for the sake of the story and "drama".

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JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#9788: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:11:49 PM

One possibility is that they could create a script for a potential Justice League 2, in which either version could be canon. (At least in Broad Strokes.)

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#9789: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:17:26 PM

Didn't Snyder say he was interested in continuing his plan for the series in a comic or something? He might be hinging his bets on that.

... But that would depend on people actually reading comics these days tongue

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#9790: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:19:39 PM

And that would take modern comics to, y'know, not suck so hard.

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#9791: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:22:55 PM

[up]At this point the comic are becoming more and more props to the movie that the other way around.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#9792: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:29:54 PM

And TV Series's too.

The future of comics lies (ironically) in it's adaptations.

Edited by Forenperser on Mar 25th 2021 at 9:30:05 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#9793: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:30:39 PM

Eh depends on the comics.

I'd hardly call Immortal Hulk a prop of the movies and the Guardians of the Galaxy are returning to form as not movie-shills.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#9794: Mar 25th 2021 at 1:32:29 PM

Speaking of which, how much money do Marvel and DC make selling comics? (On average)

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#9795: Mar 25th 2021 at 2:05:21 PM

Hundreds of millions of dollars. Probably around $400,000,000 (USD) each for Marvel and DC in 2019, which was a record breaking year for comics.

So, less than the movies, but it's rather a relative "less."

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#9796: Mar 25th 2021 at 2:10:00 PM

People have been saying the industries dying/dead for decades.

Its struggling but its been over 20 years since the original comic crash and its still alive.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 25th 2021 at 2:10:23 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#9797: Mar 25th 2021 at 2:33:38 PM

[up]Dying is so hyperbolic. It is however, fundamentally changing, with an increased focused on graphic novels, imported manga, and Kickstarter Netflix pitches vs the traditional 22 page superhero floppy.

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#9798: Mar 25th 2021 at 5:49:24 PM

I actually really disagree with the sentiment that "Snyder views superheroes as gods learning to be human." All the heroes in his DC movies come across as incredibly vulnerable and human, with their superpowers being a weight of responsibility on them. That often implies they have an enormous destiny in front of them, but they question themselves on how to progress. For all the religious symbolism that surrounds him in Snyder's movies, both Clark and Superman come across as very quiet, softspoken and dislike attention. Something I've really appreciated is that there are no moments where Clark plays pranks on people who don't know he's really Superman, Clark Kenting is often portrayed as an outright joke on the rest of the world. Similarly, Arthur was interpreted as an outcast drifter who hasn't assumed the throne of Atlantis yet because he isn't sure he wants it.

The MCU characters are human in their own way, but their superpowers are more like their gimmick that makes them special and sometimes come across like a kid playing with a toy. While in the MCU I can buy that the Avengers would throw an after battle party and try to lift Mjolnir as a parlor game, I don't really see this version of the Justice League playing Truth or Dare with the lasso.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#9799: Mar 25th 2021 at 5:58:34 PM

Now I actually do want to see a scene like that. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Mar 25th 2021 at 5:58:48 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#9800: Mar 25th 2021 at 6:13:12 PM

[up]I can’t help but think of the scene in Aquaman where he slowly warms up to the group of fans wanting a selfie.


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