Lets take this out of Darth Wiki.: Darth Wiki.Narm

Let's get a Crowner up, with the choices being "Keep Narm in Darth Wiki" and "Restore Narm to Main namespace".

But Eddie said to put it back to main.

Where?

The other thread in Special Efforts about killing all the Narm Wicks.

I see no reason why it should be renamed. Yes, it's named for a particular scene in a particular TV series, but one which has achieved a sort of infamy in the consciousness of the sort of people who visit this website. And if anything it's a positive trope; failure on the part of the writers or actors instead becomes something that makes people like the show in spite of itself. Why bother "repairing" it when the definition of the thing is fairly clear?

"but one which has achieved a sort of infamy in the consciousness of the sort of people who visit this website"

I think that's the root of the problem, the name should be clear for everyone, not just the regulars.

Shouldn't Narm examples within a works page be moved to that pages YMMV?

It should. But as a current bearer of the Flam Bait banner it isn't supposed to even be there. Why is it taking so long to simply move it off?

<Thread was locked by mistake. />

Narm is black because it is always negative. It is always about how the production screwed up a moment.

Except that it's really supposed to be "a failed dramatic attempt that's funny". It's still subjective but the unintentional humor means it could be either positive or negative.

The observation is negative, dissing the production one way or the other, right?

Calling something So Bad Is Good is negative by the same logic. It's the cheesiness that sometimes saves movies.

Or specifically Narm Charm which is the when the whole work is that way.

Case in point is that Narm is like one moment of So Bad, It's Good. Using it solely for complaining isn't the point. And Narm can be invoked intentionally meaning that any of those examples would currently be locked of the page.

If it's intentionally invoked for humor, then it's Bathos.

Or Failed Attempt at Drama, if it's just one instance.

Im confused. This page has no banner but subpages have flame bait banners. And aren't Darth Wiki pages not supposed to have examples outside of their pages? If we allow it on the main wiki, then isn't that kind of making it non-Darth Wiki?

Oh, Narm... I sometimes think this wiki wouldn't be half of what it is today without it.

If I'm allowed to take a step back to when the wiki was half-filled with character name tropes (Spikeification, Luigification, Level Five Onix, farewell to thee), I remember being utterly confused by Narm. It wasn't until I read the example from Final Fantasy VI (I snickered when "STELLA!" was yelled out dramatically) that I finally got it. The trope description is better worded now, but to be honest, there is no less indicative name on this wiki.

What doesn't help, however, is that I honestly don't hear the word "narm" in the relevant scene in Six Feet Under. Yeah, he's starting to slur his words there, but I've tried watching that clip a couple dozen times, and I really have to strain to hear where others are hearing the word in question (I mostly hear him slur out just the word "numb"). So to me, it's not only a non-indicative name, it's a name that comes from something that I don't hear in the source material.

That said, however, there comes the question of neologism - namely, has the term been used enough that, regardless of its origin, it has become a legitimate word with said definition in its own right? It certainly has here - that's basically how it became one of the Tropes Of Legend. Even if we were to throw both the intentional and unintentional versions of the trope under Bathos, would we really be clarifying things (I was a lit major in college, and I still had to rack my brain as to what "bathos" was initially)?

There has been a shift in the attitudes of this wiki for some time. Early on, it was almost a goal to try to forge new terms for various tropes, so that the Tropers would all but redefine the language used to discuss tropes. That, admittedly, went too far, and we've thankfully reined that in. That said, there are a few tropes where we have, essentially, named or renamed tropes, and if those names have caught on, we should accept that we have helped the language evolve through the common usage of the terms.

So, with that said, has Narm reached that point? Put aside any opinions on how good the name is - if we go out to the wilds of the Internet, can we get people to recognize what Narm means without explanation, at least as readily as we can do so with Bathos? If not, then a rename is probably in order. If so, though, congratulations - we've made a word stick.

I'd say very much so. I'm also a lit major (I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of tropers are), and I can never remember the difference between Pathos and Bathos and whatever that other one is. Narm, however, is immediately recognizable—I once caught my literature professor using "narmful."

So yeah, we've succeeded in inventing a new word. Woot. Go us.

You mean that university professors are actually picking up slang from a bunch of Internet nerds? Surely this is a sign of the imminent collapse of Western civilisation!

edited 11th May '11 4:26:16 PM by Killomatic

I have also heard Narm from lit professors before I ever heard of TV Tropes. I've only heard of Bathos through TV Tropes, and have never heard of anyone reference it outside of it. Apparently TV Tropes Will Ruin Academia.

edited 11th May '11 10:45:07 AM by shimaspawn

Yeah. The fact remains that Bathos is obscure. Really obscure. In fact where Narm is mentioned in They Plotted a Perfectly Good Waste Bathos isn't mentioned at all.

That was on the page before Bathos was launched, and nobody fixed it.

Should TV Tropes Will Ruin Academia have enough examples to launch, it'll instantly become my favorite page on the wiki.

I'd say that having specifically been a French Literature major(okay, French Language and Literature, but you really stop bothering with learning new words in French as of your first year), that might explain why I never heard of Bathos... that said, we sure hit plenty of other Greek-derived literary terms (I don't care what language you're speaking, you can get far in literary interpretation by discussing Hubris).

I'm personally mostly only finding discussion of Narm as used on this wiki in reference to Bathos, although that might be in large part due to several professional organizations that abbreviate to NARM. Anyone else having better luck than I?

Bathos needs redirects and pimping so bad its not even funny. (hell maybe rename)

Intentional Narm?

edited 11th May '11 2:57:36 PM by Raso