TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The Four Rules Of Three

Go To

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#201: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:14:53 PM

Yeah, down votes complicate it needlessly. A minimum number of up votes does the trick. No need to wait for minds to change and you don't have to actively diss something. Just refrain from voting.

Voting to open after 24 hours.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#202: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:16:50 PM

Do we have any statistics on the success/failure rate of YKTTW entries?

For example, how many YKTTW's in a week: (1) are added, (2) are launched, (3) are discarded? What ratio of YKTTW's ever get launched versus being discarded or abandoned?

It would be even nicer to track how many new trope launches are cut or go to TRS, versus time spent in YKTTW or use of YKTTW at all.

edited 13th Apr '11 12:18:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#203: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:27:13 PM

The problem I have with no "No" vote is that very often, when we are discussing how certain tropes are People Sit On Chairs or already covered by existing tropes, there's a non negligeable number of tropers that, rather than join the discussion, just drop in to offer names or examples. Even if everyone else who discusses the issue beside the OP agrees this should be launched. This isn't a rare occurance at all.

I worry that with no "no" vote, these people would just knee-jerk and vote up whatever they gave an example for, even if theres 3 dozen posts listing why it should not be launched.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#204: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:32:55 PM

Dammit, Fighteer, there you go using that logic shit.grin

Seriously, it probably would be a good idea to have some numbers to work with rather than basing some pretty major changes on personal perceptions. I keep a close eye on TRS and the cutlist — this mean that the new launches that I'm most likely to run into are the ones that were flawed in some way. That means that my perception of YKTTW now is that it allows deeply flawed pages out too easily. But to Frodo, who is much more active in YKTTW, a bigger problem is that it's difficult for a proposed trope to gather the explicit consensus that it's ready to launch for those tropers who do try to make sure that their page is solid before they launch.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#205: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:50:51 PM

Here's some stats, using 8 days from March 21st to march 28th using the list of launches:

  • 115 Tropes Launched or Discarded
    • Slowest day was the 21st, with 10 Launches/Discards. Busiest was the 24th with 20. Average of 13.5. Mode is 14 with three occurences.
    • 90 were launches
      • 3 of these launches are Red linked. Either cut, or never were completed. Crossreferencing with the cutlist, none of those 3 were cut, so they are failed launches.
    • 25 were discards

Can't get info on created YKTTW during that time though

edited 13th Apr '11 1:18:57 PM by Ghilz

BigT grimAuxiliatrix Since: Jan, 2001
grimAuxiliatrix
#206: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:55:26 PM

[up][up]I think the reason that happens is more because so many Tropers don't realize they are supposed to comment on whether the trope is good or not. Plus, if a lot of crappy YKTTWs get a lot of yes votes, we'll know there is a problem, and can work on it.

My solution, if there became a problem, would be to have a No vote, but not have it count against anything. It would simply exist to keep track of the fact that you've already voted on something. If people are voting just to vote, that should handle it.

Everyone Has An Important Job To Do
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#207: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:01:42 PM

212 created in that period.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#208: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:03:09 PM

@Ghilz: That's a good point, but I agree with Eddie that having downvotes creates more problems than it solves. The way I see it is this:

  • Currently, a lot of badly-defined tropes are getting through YKTTW. Our goal is to reduce that number.
  • Requiring upvotes only will, at worst, reduce that number without the risk of accidentally preventing good tropes from getting through.
  • Having downvotes and upvotes means that a trope could receive downvotes in an early stage that keep it from getting launched even after it's been fixed up. In other words, that system might prevent both bad and good tropes from being launched.
  • Our decision is basically whether we want to deal with a (hopefully reduced) number of badly defined tropes being launched, or with the problem of some good tropes being stuck in YKTTW

In short, it's going to be nigh impossible to rig YKTTW so that only good tropes make it through without slowing the entire thing to a crawl. It's important to remember that TRS exists for a reason. Our goal here is to reduce the number of newly launched tropes that end up there, not perfect YKTTW so that TRS isn't needed at all. Bad tropes may still be launched, but as long as we reduce the number of those tropes by a significant amount, we're still making progress.

[up][up]So what you're saying is that the downvotes would just exist to show how many people are against the launch? That could work, but I foresee problems with tropes getting voted into the red, and then launched anyway because they have enough upvotes. It would create a lot of complaints of "how did that crap get through". Also, if the downvotes don't mean anything anyway, people aren't going to have as much faith in the crowner. "Why should I bother voting against it if it'll just get launched anyway?" and such.

edited 13th Apr '11 1:06:01 PM by JapaneseTeeth

Reaction Image Repository
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#209: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:05:53 PM

So with 212 created in that period, that would mean that only 54%*

of YKTTW seem to ever make their way out of it either through launches or discards.

edited 13th Apr '11 1:07:18 PM by Ghilz

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#210: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:08:05 PM

[up] Well, in that time period at least. I would assume that more of them are launched/discarded somewhere down the road.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#211: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:09:56 PM

^^ Not quite. We don't know what the overlap between the YKTT Ws created and the ones launched was — how many of the 115 launched were also in the 212 that were first made in the same period.

edited 13th Apr '11 1:10:20 PM by Madrugada

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#212: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:13:15 PM

Just ran the numbers for this month to date (created: 368/launched: 109/chucked: 46). That's about 42% having some disposition.

edited 13th Apr '11 1:13:58 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#213: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:15:38 PM

^^Why would that be interesting?

edited 13th Apr '11 1:15:52 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#214: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:17:46 PM

It's not important, I was simply pointing out that you can't do that with statistics and get meaningful numbers. The hottip Ghilz has added indicates he's aware of it and wasn't intending to imply otherwise.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#215: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:18:29 PM

Quicky doing a few more periods

  • March 13th to 20th: 84 launches/discards. 65 Launches, 19 Discards
  • March 29th April 4th: 76 launches/discards. 61 Launches, 15 Discards
  • April 5th to 12th: 101 launches/discards. 68 Launches, 33 Discards.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#216: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:19:50 PM

I mostly meant that the difference in ratio between incomings in YKTTW and outgoings is such

Eitherway, looking at Fast Eddie's number, seem to say that only about half of the YKTTW created ever come out

edited 13th Apr '11 1:22:20 PM by Ghilz

EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#217: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:24:31 PM

Maybe at first, whichever method we choose, we should just add the crowners and the entry ratings without connecting them to any rule, just to see how people use them.

Would they remember to change their negative votes? Or with an "up only" voting system, how many votes would a normal good trope get?

They wouldn't mean anything, just be there, and after we learned how people use them, write rules around it accordingly.

edited 13th Apr '11 1:39:20 PM by EternalSeptember

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#218: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:28:14 PM

^^ That looks like the launched:discarded ratio is running between 20% and 30% in general.

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#219: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:45:29 PM

[up][up]I can't see it doing anything but creating chaos if we don't specify what the crowners are supposed to do.

Reaction Image Repository
Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#220: Apr 13th 2011 at 4:11:28 PM

Are crowner votes stored with dates attached? If so then the voting could be split between "recent" and "all".

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Unknownlight Since: Aug, 2009
#221: Apr 13th 2011 at 4:30:13 PM

How's this: there's up and down votes, but if the OP believes the changes that caused the down votes have since been fixed, they can reset the crowner? And maybe put a time limit on how often you can reset it?

edited 13th Apr '11 4:32:38 PM by Unknownlight

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#222: Apr 13th 2011 at 4:56:50 PM

That could allow a certain kind of OPs to cheat by resetting the crowner when no one's looking. Making that an offense warranting appropiately severe punishment would be highly preferable.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#223: Apr 13th 2011 at 6:00:36 PM

You could add a separate tag for "Ready To Launch?" that comes with the crowner, and make this a sortable tag. This way, you can look at it in it's "finished state" as opposed to something that's still early in it's construction phase. If it gets voted down by a certain percentage, it goes back to the workshop stage.

Fight smart, not fair.
FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#224: Apr 13th 2011 at 6:28:26 PM

But to Frodo, who is much more active in YKTTW, a bigger problem is that it's difficult for a proposed trope to gather the explicit consensus that it's ready to launch for those tropers who do try to make sure that their page is solid before they launch.
Couldn't have put it better myself.

One strategy idea I had, is go ahead and do a yes/no vote on tropability, and if you get a lot of no votes, but you think you can fix the concerns, create a textfile with the examples you have, etc., fix the issues in the text file and save it, discard the YKTTW, and restart it fresh with the fix and see if you now get mostly yes votes. It'll take longer, and the discard rate will go from maybe 25% to 50% or something, but it might make the releases cleaner.

You could add a separate tag for "Ready To Launch?" that comes with the crowner, and make this a sortable tag. This way, you can look at it in it's "finished state" as opposed to something that's still early in it's construction phase. If it gets voted down by a certain percentage, it goes back to the workshop stage.
That'd work too.

Another thought: when voting on tropability, it'd really help if people would give a reason. I'd prefer not to force people to do it, though.

HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#225: Apr 13th 2011 at 8:22:19 PM

It's fascinating watching the kludging process at work before we've even implemented the damn thing. "Hey, I just thought of a problem that might come up, let's fix it!" "Hey, there's a problem with that solution, let's add something else to fix that!" "Now we have to put a bear trap in the mailbox!"

Ahem. I think there's something to Eternal September's suggesting of putting the mini-crowners in, but without connecting them to anything — launching is permitted regardless of the crowner outcome, it's a straw poll and no more — just to see what happens. It could be that a lot of the problems we're scrambling to fix won't actually come up.


it's going to be nigh impossible to rig YKTTW so that only good tropes make it through without slowing the entire thing to a crawl.
I'm not sure why that's necessarily bad.

the discard rate will go from maybe 25% to 50% or something, but it might make the releases cleaner.
That's another non-problem, if the ones being discarded should be discarded.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

PageAction: YKTTWRigor
10th Apr '11 9:10:43 AM

Crown Description:

Trying to get a feel for what alterations can be made to YKTTW to increase output quality.

Total posts: 276
Top