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JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#176: Apr 12th 2011 at 9:28:47 PM

[up][up]That probably would help, although I have no idea if it's even possible to prevent anyone from launching tropes without also preventing them from launching work pages, or other sorts of things. But then again, I don't know anything about how the wiki's coding works, so it might be easier than I think.

[up]Sorry, I misread your post. I thought that your comment about "Though I don't think a bloc of tropers suppressing YKTTW entries is a significant problem thus far" meant that you thought they weren't a problem now, but could become one if we set up more delays in trope launching.

Sorry about that.

edited 12th Apr '11 9:31:08 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#177: Apr 12th 2011 at 9:33:07 PM

Well, my preference would be to lock page creation for any handle less than two weeks old. Eddie hasn't gone that far, and probably for good reason, but we could also consider putting a soft-lock on the Main namespace. By that I mean if you try to start any new article in Main, you get a warning page first that says something to the effect of:

WARNING: You are adding a new article to the wiki's Main namespace. If this is a new trope, take it to YKTTW first. If this is a work, consider putting it in the proper medium Namespace. To continue to create this new article, click here.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#178: Apr 12th 2011 at 9:38:31 PM

[up]Sounds like a good idea to me, especially the "block launching privileges for new handles" thing. Can't expect people to have a good idea of how to define a trope if they haven't been around for very long.

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#179: Apr 12th 2011 at 10:04:59 PM

I would like to suggest what I forgot before:

A split tag. Rather than simply listing at the top

Splitting Trope X

It'd be nice to be able to tag it so that you don't spend the first fifteen posts explaining this. Also, a tag for the original trope would be nice.

Fight smart, not fair.
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#180: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:10:58 AM

Regarding pre-indexing:

Currently, we can only browse YKTTW threads sorted by date only. (We can also search by keywords, but that's a bit cumbersome, especially for words that are common.)

The idea is that we should also be able to browse threads by indexes.

Bob starts a trope called Save Your Deity, and list it as "Religion Tropes" and "Plots". Alice, having a special interest in religion, browse YKTTW for religion tropes and find this one. Without pre-indexing, she would most likely have missed this one as well as other religion tropes in development.

I think pretty much everyone is more interested in some fields then in some other fields, so having pre-indexing would increase the chance that threads get input from the people who care about the subject. This increase the chance not only of higher quantity of responses, but also higher quality: People tend to care about the fields they have knowledge in, as they tend to develop knowledge in the fields they are interested in.

Also, if we go through with needing upvotes to launch, then we really need people to be able to browse the category "this trope is getting ready, please have a look and upvote if it looks reasonably finished to you".

FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#181: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:27:02 AM

I often find that it is very hard to tell when I have consensus. Regardless of the trope and issues I've requested help with, tyically 95% of the replies are examples, alternate name suggestions, and arguements against launching that are readily "fixable" - the commenter misunderstood the definition, the YKTTW should be made into a supertrope of the current definition and a related trope, etc.

So after maybe six weeks I find that I've got 20 examples, 12 different name suggestions, of which only one had a supporting vote, 5 arguements against launching that I fixed, and 2 people that explicitly approved of the trope. So I just keep bumping it because there isn't a clear consensus.

Having crowners will make it a lot easier to determine where people really are on the issue.

edited 13th Apr '11 12:41:21 AM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#182: Apr 13th 2011 at 1:11:31 AM

I often find that it is very hard to tell when I have consensus. Regardless of the trope and issues I've requested help with, tyically 95% of the replies are examples, alternate name suggestions, and arguements against launching that are readily "fixable" - the commenter misunderstood the definition, the YKTTW should be made into a supertrope of the current definition and a related trope, etc.

I think this is due to people not knowing that they're supposed to eventually declare something launchable.

Fight smart, not fair.
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#183: Apr 13th 2011 at 4:39:22 AM

Another site I'm on use a technical solution that could be useful here.

That site is a web community. One of it's many functions is to work as a dating site: On a sub-page of each user's personal page, there's a lot of check-boxes for what the person like and dislike. When you search for people, you can check one or more of these checkboxes as what you're looking for.

Applied on YKTTW, there could be a bunch of checkboxes: One shorter list for tags, one longer list for indexes. When a troper look for the latest entries it could be made to focus on certain tags or indexes.

For example, lets say I tag "Save Your Deity" as "Ready For Launch?" and check the indexes "Religion Tropes" and "Plots".

When a troper look for YKTTW:s tagged "religion tropes", "Save Your Deity" will be on the list. When s/he instead look for threads tagged "costume tropes", it will not.

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#184: Apr 13th 2011 at 5:19:59 AM

I think the only way to ensure that is to make every troper frequent YKTTW. If the obstructionists are the only people hanging out there, they will run the place de facto. Though I don't think a bloc of tropers suppressing YKTTW entries is a significant problem thus far, so whatever safeguards we already have are working well enough.

Keep in mind that I said that before consensus seemed to be leaning towards "requiring X amount of up-votes before launch", which I agree would not allow for problems with people who want to prevent a trope from launching against consensus (as they simply won't vote.)

edited 13th Apr '11 5:20:49 AM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#185: Apr 13th 2011 at 6:42:35 AM

"I often find that it is very hard to tell when I have consensus. Regardless of the trope and issues I've requested help with, tyically 95% of the replies are examples, alternate name suggestions, and arguements against launching that are readily "fixable" - the commenter misunderstood the definition, the YKTTW should be made into a supertrope of the current definition and a related trope, etc."

I think this is due to people not knowing that they're supposed to eventually declare something launchable.

And also because a single YKTTW doesn't even get enough attention for more discussion than that. Sometimes I have to repeatedly bump a YKTTW several times before it gets a single comment, even if I'm explicitly asking for a better title, and more examples.

If it's that hard for a whole entry to get noticed, a random suggestion in a reply post will get ignored a hundred times more so. There are more YKTTW than commenters, there is simply no audience for starting a long, TRS-style debate about every title, definition, or image suggestion.

That's why I'm so sure that we will eventually still need someone personally taking the lead in sorting out the acceptable suggestions.

edited 13th Apr '11 6:43:22 AM by EternalSeptember

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#186: Apr 13th 2011 at 6:57:45 AM

I'd like to take a second to point out this YKTTW. It was apparently discarded by someone other than the OP and then restored, also by someone other than the OP.

On one hand, discarding a YKTTW without giving the OP time to respond to criticism, no matter how bad the YKTTW is, shouldn't be allowed. It's rude and it means that one person's opinion on the trope has veto power over it being launched. (No opinion on this particular trope's tropeability.)

On the other hand, the anger over messing with someone else's YKTTW, no matter how you mess with it, needs to go. Allowing someone to edit the OP without replacing their name was a good start, so it doesn't look like they're taking credit. But we need to "train" this point of view out of our culture and it's probably going to take work. While in this case, the offense is probably warranted, I have seen people extremely annoyed by simple edits, adding a few lines to the OP, clarifying the description, or even just adding an example rather than replying.

edited 13th Apr '11 6:59:02 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#187: Apr 13th 2011 at 9:09:42 AM

Huh, I thought I commented on that one.

Fight smart, not fair.
Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#188: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:13:59 AM

The Discard button could probably have a 12-24 hour timeout. That way it can be cleaned out relatively quickly, but hopefully not before feedback was given.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#189: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:19:28 AM

[up][up][up]That's why I'm a bit wary of this whole "ownership" thing. I think a sandbox first post would help, especially if we make it more obvious that people are entitled to (and encouraged to) clarify the trope descriptions, add examples, etc. However, I think we should still strive to give credit where credit is due; maybe we could add a "proposed by X" note on the OP that never changes, so despite edits, we still know who first came up with the trope.

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FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#190: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:29:22 AM

I'll put some labels on, to make that a bit more clear. Not a process change, just making the process more evident.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#191: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:35:19 AM

If we are going to use a system where votes are needed for launch, the alternatives should be "yes" or "not voting".

Would be sad if a lot of people voted "no" when the trope wasn't ready to launch, and then the trope get finished but can never launch because the old no-votes are blocking the launch.

Also, one jerkass with a few sockpuppets could do a lot of damage voting "no" to a trope for bad reasons and doing it multiple times from his different accounts.

edited 13th Apr '11 11:36:39 AM by Xzenu

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#192: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:35:45 AM

Just saw the new sponsor thing. Nice.

[up] Crowners do not allows sockpuppets to vote multiple times if from the same IP

Also, a NO is needed. Otherwise when a trope is REALLY a bad idea, (like it's People Sit On Chairs) the people who oppose it have no voice. all you need is one or two yes.

edited 13th Apr '11 11:38:10 AM by Ghilz

Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#194: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:44:51 AM

You can change your vote on a crowner as they are now. Unless Fast Eddie writes a whole new batch of code for the YKTTW, that will still be possible.

EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#195: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:48:39 AM

I would have preferred that whole "sponsor" thing to remain an unofficial term for whoever spends the most time with updating the trope, not something written on the interface.

Now, if it's just interchargible with "OP", it really looks like it is being "FIRST!" that makes you stand out, rather than actually taking care of the trope.

Many YKTTW were sponsored people who only grabbed an Up For Grabs stub, and many O Ps didn't ever plan to sponsor the stub that they started.

edited 13th Apr '11 11:58:16 AM by EternalSeptember

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#196: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:50:24 AM

I was thinking of something simple for the voting on the draft readiness, but maybe it does make sense to use the ratio system, where a 2:1 is a go, with some minimum number of total votes.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#197: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:51:45 AM

That could work. maybe also prevent voting at least in the first 24 hours.

EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#198: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:55:33 AM

The YKTTW page is so long, and so quickly rotates, that most people will never see the same entry twice.

Many entries that got downvoted at first, for a bad first draft, could never gather all of those downvoters again, and ask them to change their votes.

A simple "ready to go" vote that a number of people would have to push would be more practical. If a trope is bad, they will not push it.

Edit:[up] That's a good idea, this way, the first problems could be fixed before the voting starts.

edited 13th Apr '11 11:56:25 AM by EternalSeptember

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#199: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:08:02 PM

I think the problem stated with the ratio thing is that some people may vote "no" initially, then never come back to the crowner to change their vote. This would possibly "weigh down" the crowner for a proposed trope that truly is ready now, but had a lot of "No" votes early in the process.

Since our goal here is different from the TRS crowners (where people are really only expected to vote once), it could be dangerous to assume that it won't work the same way.

edit: Whoops, ninja'd, I should check the thread after leaving the PC in the middle of typing.

edited 13th Apr '11 12:09:21 PM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#200: Apr 13th 2011 at 12:09:08 PM

[up][up][up]I also like that idea.

The reason I proposed simply requiring upvotes as opposed to a full crowner with up and down votes is for the reason that Xzenu and Eternal September mentioned. Blocking voting for the first day or so would probably help quite a bit.

edited 13th Apr '11 12:10:54 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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PageAction: YKTTWRigor
10th Apr '11 9:10:43 AM

Crown Description:

Trying to get a feel for what alterations can be made to YKTTW to increase output quality.

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