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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#151: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:47:18 AM

Blast, I had an idea, just can't remember what. CURSES

Oh, I know. Could it have a basic template already up instead of just a blank page so that it's already got stuff like

Examples

Set up?

No wait, that's probably too much work for too little reward.

Perhaps a generic trope description in a drop down so that people can enter the stuff they want?

Fight smart, not fair.
Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#152: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:56:19 AM

Sponsor is a good word since it avert the whole "who's the real father" cultural baggage. So, something like...

Sponsor: person putting special effort into a trope.

Original sponsor(s): The individual who first came up with the idea. Alternatively a group that came up with it together or two or more individusls who thought it up independently of each other but later merged/pooled.

Xzenu Since: Apr, 2010
#153: Apr 12th 2011 at 5:02:05 AM

No matter how we define it, keeping it informal is probably much preferable.

In either case, one of the good things with saving the original ykttw thread as archived is that it give recognition to the multiple individuals who helped the whole thing get started. When I find a cool trope, I often enjoy checking that archive and then the pages of the people who participated.

MCE Since: Jan, 2001
#154: Apr 12th 2011 at 6:17:01 AM

Interesting, when I started a a discussion about how it would be a good idea to consult the original trope creator (The Original sponsor(s)) before making massive changes it was met with annoyance. Perhaps I phrased it wrong.

I do support the idea that having a volunteer 'caretaker' for each trope would be a good idea.

edited 12th Apr '11 6:27:29 AM by MCE

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#155: Apr 12th 2011 at 10:00:32 AM

@Deboss: You mean to cut down on stuff like:


Completely Opaque Trope Title

Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Sentence with ten words or less. Up For Grabs!

Examples


When you have an OP like this, you don't have a good YKTTW, it's Just A Laconic And Example and not good for launch.

edited 12th Apr '11 3:05:29 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#156: Apr 12th 2011 at 10:59:01 AM

[up]Stuff like that is why I think upvotes should be required before tropes get launched. I've seen stuff like that get launched without ever being defined all that well.

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#157: Apr 12th 2011 at 2:21:18 PM

I was thinking more like a prebuilt page with a section for "description" and one for "examples" with the basic format filled out.

Fight smart, not fair.
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#158: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:07:55 PM

Considering the current crowner state (not wholly supporting either complete sandboxification, or more OP powers), how about having this page/statement about ownership/parenthood/sponsorship/guiding?

I'll use the latter term, because I like it more, but if you insist on "sponsor", we can replace it:

Trope Ownership, And You

Normally, you are not supposed to see these two terms in the same sentence.

Whenever you see someone saying something like "I made this trope, ask permission before adding anything to it", or "it will be named after my favorite show, because it makes enough sense to me", they are doing it wrong.

We are glad if you spend some of your time with finding a trope for this wiki, and in case an argument about the trope's meaning comes up, we can even respect your interpretation of it as an "expert" who spent more time with describing it than other tropers, but that's it. On the functional trope pages, you can stay around and help keeping it updated according to the rules, as kind of a "guide" but you won't get any moderator-like priviledge, or the right to declare what it's "supposed to mean", if that meaning is not written into the definition.

On the YKTTW, this "guiding" is slightly different, for practical reasons: Since matching all the details of a description, a title, a page image, and an example list, from the scratch is a complicated job that most casual editors tend to skip, we sort of got used to leaving it for such guides, (usually the original poster, or another enthusiastic troper), to start organizing these: It's still nothing like a position of ownership, more like an unofficial role of advocacy. You are still not above the rules, neither above the consensus of other tropers if most of them disagree with you, but as long as you do everything well, you can expect most of them to accept your guidance, and constructively help you in describing the trope that was originally in your mind.

If not, then take a deep breath, read the beginning of this page again, and remember that you are not making a trope for your own amusement, you are trying to help in describing an existing trope, for eveyone. And if said "everyone" doesn't agree with you about how you should do it, it is entirely possible that they are right.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:10:21 PM by EternalSeptember

randomsurfer Since: Jan, 2001
#159: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:46:21 PM

I made this post to the Tech Wish List a few days before this discussion started. I've added my two "YKTTW Wishes" to the crowner. (The third, a discard button, has already been implemented.) Hope that's OK; I'm not a regular on the forums so if there's a rule I'm breaking it's accidental, I spend most of my time on YKTTW.

  1. Being able to edit the OP without the result being to reload the whole YKTTW page when you save.
  2. Having a YKTTW search that isn't located solely on the top of the YKTTW page, making you have to load all of YKTTW in order to search; and having searched not having to reload YKTTW in order to search again.

In regards a previous post on the three day rule - when the software resolution first appeared it made sense in order to to explain it to people saying "where'd the lauch button go?", but now that it's been implemented for a while I think the wording should be tweeked: instead of "A YKTTW should stay active for three days before it is launched: I suggest "A YKTTW should stay active for a minimum of three days before it is launched." I've seen at least one poster (and probably more) who thought that they had to launch 3 days after posting Or Else.

edited 12th Apr '11 5:09:28 PM by randomsurfer

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#160: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:51:02 PM

What bothers me, personally, the most about YKTTW is that everything is on just one page in a big long list. It's basically incompatible with tabbed browsing, which is how I normally read forum-type stuff. I'd be interested in a way to view YKTTW as a list of links—kind of like the existing YKTTW History function, but not restricted to the ones I've already posted in.

That would get me more involved in YKTTW.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#161: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:52:56 PM

Being able to edit the OP and have it give you the permanent link to that YKTTW when you're done rather than the whole list would also be kinder on the database because it has to look up a lot less information.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#162: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:53:00 PM

[up][up]I mentioned that a while ago, FE's response was "Hit the close all description button, and just open the permanent link in a new tab"

Works well enough

edited 12th Apr '11 4:53:13 PM by Ghilz

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#163: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:57:31 PM

I'm not getting what the "pre-indexing" item might mean.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#164: Apr 12th 2011 at 5:00:45 PM

^I think it means allowing the designation of indexes in such a way that you could browse only the YKTTW entries on a given index.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#165: Apr 12th 2011 at 6:04:27 PM

I agree that having all the ykttws on one page is a huge pain. Having a list of links on an index would make the page load much faster. But that's not really related to the question at hand.

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Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#166: Apr 12th 2011 at 7:03:47 PM

I can only say that I believe many of Fast Eddie's concerns are misplaced:

  • Sure, it might easily seem that nearly all tropes have been identified, but a lot haven't. I have a sheet of paper covered in names of trope ideas, few of which have reached YKTTW.
  • I can see how an admin would want to increase the barrier for creating tropes. But speaking from a non-administrative viewpoint, I agree with Eternal September that well-formulated tropes should be easier to launch. I just don't see "high speed throughput" in the rate of launched YKTTWs. It takes work to launch a trope properly (which is not to say that all tropes from YKTTW get launched properly), and too many good YKTTWs just get lost in the shuffle.
  • Requiring YKTTWers to listen to feedback is no good if they don't provide feedback. I'm not saying that people like me should be offering constructive feedback and principled objections to other people's YKTTWs, and it obviously isn't good to see people ignoring it. But I'm worried that the new system will hold YKTTWs hostage to crowners that get completely neglected.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#167: Apr 12th 2011 at 7:12:54 PM

Having a forum-like listing for YKTTW would be cool. I have always wondered why the YKTTW navigation buton always goes to ykttw.php?interval=1 (recent 24 hours only) yet every single time you make any kind of edit to any YKTTW it goes to ykttw.php showing all YKTT Ws (within ... like, 30 days) when it flat out doesn't need to.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#168: Apr 12th 2011 at 8:09:35 PM

The YKTTW page never seems to render correctly in my browser, which has some bug that wrecks scrolling.

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#169: Apr 12th 2011 at 8:20:05 PM

@Prfnoff: No problem at all agreeing with the hope that well-constructed tropes could go through YKTTW like greased lightning. We're focusing here on the "well-constructed" part of that.

We saw an incremental improvement when we put the mandatory three day deal in. I think that was due to the tropers who do listen to feedback allowing enough time for the feedback to arrive.

It is pretty easy to get excited by an idea and just jam it out there while it is still hot. Works — and a trope description is definitely a work — do better when the creator takes an analytic, pre-publishing look at the thing.

Some people do that analytic look faster than others. Some don't do it all. We need a way to reach that last group.

I don't really think there will be any reluctance to vote a thing up if it looks solid. If it can't collect up votes at all, the message is that it is not compelling. Not interesting.

Sorry, but we're not interested in even beautifully crafted stuff if it is dull.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#170: Apr 12th 2011 at 8:26:05 PM

Pre-indexing seems to mean that you can essentially have YKTTW function as an indexed trope within YKTTW, so if I wanted to look at all the Speculative Fiction YKTTW tropes proposed, I could do so with an option.

I would also like a Forum style one.

Fight smart, not fair.
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#171: Apr 12th 2011 at 8:29:28 PM

I'd somewhat assumed YKTTW functions in part, or can function in part, as a workshop for tropes — not just titles, but descriptions. In other words, one posts/may post something there not only to seek agreement but to solicit opinion, so the collaborative process can start even before the page is launched.

That's consistent with the notion that YKTTW is preferred, but not required*

but no less sensible to me if we do start requiring it* .

And yes, I upvoted the corresponding crowner option.

Just as there are editors who will launch an article against consensus, there are those who would seek to keep an article from being launched against consensus. Any system we put in place would need to ensure that the latter group does not have an inordinate amount of power in preventing articles from being launched.
I think the only way to ensure that is to make every troper frequent YKTTW. If the obstructionists are the only people hanging out there, they will run the place de facto. Though I don't think a bloc of tropers suppressing YKTTW entries is a significant problem thus far, so whatever safeguards we already have are working well enough.

The parenthood metaphor is win.

Even after I release my YKTTW into the world (launching it) I still watch it (on my watchlist) and take care of it (giving it an image, entry pimping it, finding examples, etc.) and make sure it doesn't check into a clinic (being send to the Trope Repair Shop).

Except you don't pimp your children. I hope.grin

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#172: Apr 12th 2011 at 8:32:52 PM

If the obstructionists are the only people hanging out there, they will run the place de facto
Not much of a risk. At this point, from my experience, if you criticize someone's YKTTW, it's only about 50-50 that anyone will even reply to your post.

edited 12th Apr '11 9:16:48 PM by INUH

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#173: Apr 12th 2011 at 9:15:31 PM

[up][up]I wasn't aware that "Obstructionists" are really that much of a problem. All we're doing is trying to keep undefined tropes from being launched prematurely. I don't think that requiring half a dozen upvotes is going to slow the process by any noticeable amount except in the case of tropes that nobody finds worth launching.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#174: Apr 12th 2011 at 9:18:49 PM

[up] Agreed. It would be better if the "obstructionists" did indeed have the power to prevent a launch. It would be far, far, far better if we had some way to prevent new tropes from being created at all without YKTTW.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#175: Apr 12th 2011 at 9:28:19 PM

That's why I said obstructionists aren't a problem.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

PageAction: YKTTWRigor
10th Apr '11 9:10:43 AM

Crown Description:

Trying to get a feel for what alterations can be made to YKTTW to increase output quality.

Total posts: 276
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