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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#101: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:17:32 PM

The comment about Eddie being ok with attacking other users strikes me as odd. Did you holler at the mods and tell Eddie and the other mods about the post? Did you take it to Ask The Tropers? Or did you just assume that the mods see and read every bit of the wiki at every moment with their omnipotent mod powers and the only reason it hadn't been taken care of was because they approved of it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#102: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:19:20 PM

[up]In his defense, FE himself posted in that discussion and didn't say anything about the comment, but then I don't see Komodin's comment as inflammatory anyway.

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TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#103: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:34:22 PM

This is getting a little side-tracked. I can see how Komodin's comment, while not ill-intentioned, could be read as an insult. (Due to slightly warped logic, but still...) Let's try to be civil about this, and move on.

Back on topic, it's think it's becoming clear that many of our approaches to problem-solving (on every level) are far too reactive. Problems get too big, Eddie has to bring himself in to solve them, and people complain. Perhaps we need to streamline our procedures so that we avoid big problems to begin with.

I think the first step could be finding a way to get more people participating in the fora, particularly in the administrative side of things. Didn't Eddie himself once say that roughly only one in three tropers use the forums? If so, then probably even fewer come in to Wiki Talk or TRS or such. So, what should be done about that?

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#104: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:40:47 PM

If you want to get people participating in the forums then you need to have less subforums for a start. Seriously. You click on the forum link and this page chock full of sub-forums appears some of which have rather non-indicative titles on their own. It is a confusing page, and there is a lot of duplication there.

I'd also strongly suggest moderators not be forum members, but be set apart to avoid even the appearance of bias.

edited 12th Apr '11 3:42:48 PM by CrypticMirror

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#105: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:43:21 PM

[up] Examples of redundancies please?

I'd also strongly suggest moderators not be forum members, but be set apart to avoid even the appearance of bias.

You can't tell who's a mod without looking at Know The Staff, and they always use a Mod Voice or something when using their authority.

edited 12th Apr '11 3:44:52 PM by SpellBlade

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#106: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:45:58 PM

I'd also strongly suggest moderators not be forum members, but be set apart to avoid even the appearance of bias.

How would that even work?

INUH Since: Jul, 2009
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#108: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:46:52 PM

For the record, it is advisable for people to actually read the positions of SPOON, FORKS, PLATTER, and KNIVES before making generalizations about them. The popular perception of SPOON is the most off from its actual position, I think in part because there is no other "official"*

faction to collect the people who oppose FORKS more than SPOON does. "Official" SPOON is very close to PLATTER and joins with the other three factions in condemning some of the more extreme actions that are generally blamed on SPOON because any other faction would be a worse fit.

Anyway, last month there were approximately ten times as many editors as posters, and 100 times as many viewers as editors.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#109: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:48:48 PM

Spellblade, just look at the huge number of sub-forums that pop up and pretend you are a newbie with a question. When you see this huge page, filled with thirty-eight sub-forums, it is intimidating and confusing.

Seriously, thirty eight.

For mods posting, they do not take any position beyond making sure the conversation is fair, no party is making nasty comments, and just to keep things on track. No endorsement of any position, no comment on topics, beyond moderating. That means no side can claim mod support for their particular initiative. Part of the problem with being put off is that mods appear to be actively backing various positions.

edited 12th Apr '11 3:51:41 PM by CrypticMirror

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#110: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:49:20 PM

@Cryptic: The only subforums that are really relevant to this discussion are the ones under the "wiki and forums" heading, of which there are only 8, each with a well-defined purpose. There isn't really any way to streamline them any more, outside of making separate pages for each section. As for moderators not being forum posters, that almost certainly isn't going to happen, for a myriad of reasons. First and foremost being that setting them apart from the rest of the tropers creates that sort of "inner circle" mentality that we want to avoid.

The main problem with the forums is that it's where most of the discussion of wiki policy take place, but not all of the tropers frequent it. So the forum will make a decision, and when we implement it, all the non-forum tropers will start complaining that they didn't have a say in the decision. What we need to do publicize these types of things more on the main wiki. Like put a banner at the top of affected pages that "X is being discussed, go to this thread to vote on the matter" or something of that nature.

[up]Which is why whenever we're discussing an action that will affect a given page, we put a direct link to that thread on the affected page. They wouldn't need to bother with the rest of the forums, and it would get the rest of the wiki involved in forum activities.

edited 12th Apr '11 3:51:26 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#111: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:51:34 PM

^We do link to TRS and Image Pickin' threads from the wiki. And you edited that into your post, causing my post to look stupid.

edited 12th Apr '11 3:52:00 PM by INUH

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#112: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:54:20 PM

And we have news posts on the top left hand corner of the wiki that link to ongoing discussions when we have big things that effect the whole wiki.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#113: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:55:29 PM

@Cryptic: As a mod, I consider it my duty—in the case where an "official" policy already exists—to post the policy and why that policy was chosen. I don't always agree with the policies we have, but I think it's silly to consider changing a policy without considering why it exists in the first place.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#114: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:57:35 PM

Yes the voting is another problem. There is no set procedure, there is an automatic assumption of a rename and then the alt-names are put up in a crowner for selection. If you wanted to be fair, then every rename or major action must have a single prop crowner first. Regardless of how "obvious" it seems, because the current system of propose a rename and then jump into selecting new names is one of the off-putting things. Why bother taking part in a discussion when it appears the minds are already made up.

As for the number of sub-forums, the reason that is relevant is because you click on the forum link and all thirty eight appear on the same page. You look at that and it is baffling, and intimidating. Yeah only eight ought to be the ones you need to know, but coming to it brand new, and not knowing that and being presented with thirty eight then that is not clear.

Ironeye, yes, good, precisely. And that is all mods should do as far as any positions should be. They shouldn't be taking part in the discussion beyond stating the current dry facts, or at least not under their mod handle.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:01:00 PM by CrypticMirror

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#115: Apr 12th 2011 at 3:57:59 PM

@INUH: Sorry, I posted half-done version of my post then edited it so I wouldn't get triple ninja'd yet again.

[up]Which is why for Image Pickin and TRS, we link to the exact thread. I also think we should do that with other issues (like during the big YMMV move we should have had a link on YMMV pages to the appropriate thread).

edited 12th Apr '11 4:00:50 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#116: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:00:06 PM

[up][up] Incorrect. There is a set procedure. First we have a crowner on if we should rename or not. Only if that passes do we have an alternate name crowner. The natural bias to the rename process is not to rename. Basically, reality is the exact opposite of your post.

You should read Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Names.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:01:06 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#117: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:01:40 PM

[up][up][up]I don't know what rename threads you've been following, but going straight to the alternate names crowner almost never happens unless there is unanimity in the thread for the first page or so, and even then it's considered a bit underhanded in all but the most open-and-shut cases (eg trope launcher overruled everyone else's opinions in YKTTW).

edited 12th Apr '11 4:02:41 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#118: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:04:45 PM

I'm sorry Shimaspawn but that is simply not true. If you come in proposing a rename then almost immediately new names are suggested, then it goes to a crowner regarding which of the suggestions to rename to. Only in rare cases does there seem to be a single prop first, I've only seen it a handful of times when this happens.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:05:55 PM by CrypticMirror

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#119: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:05:37 PM

Hmmm, maybe rewrite the TV Tropes Forum page to indicate that it's where many decisions are handled?

Edit: I'll admit to going to an alt. names crowner first once, but that was after I asked if a single option one was needed. No one answered.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:07:11 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#120: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:07:13 PM

[up][up] I spend almost all my time on the wiki in the TSR. I have only seen it go straight to an alternate name crowner twice and in both those times it was when a trope shared a name with a work.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#121: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:08:16 PM

Totemic, that would be a good idea. Getting told to take your opinion to the forums, but then having thirty eight of them appear when you click the link is confusing. Perhaps, instead of all thirty eight on one page it should be a disambiguation page listing the six sub categories and what they are for.

As for the crowners. Again, imagine you are a newbie (and these are the people you want), the forum regulars (and it is obvious who they are) are all saying one thing. Now you are new, and although you disagree, you have a healthy amount of peer pressure and trepidation inside. Are you really going to post and risk the wrath of the regulars, especially if you see them brushing off other people perhaps just ignoring them (maybe you consider them chronic complainers like me or whatever), or a mod backing the reg's view? No, you aren't, of course not. It is human nature to do that. So it appears there is no opposition, it skips the anonymous ballot where newbies can feel safe putting their views forward.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:12:57 PM by CrypticMirror

INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#122: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:09:26 PM

Cryptic, you're wrong about renaming. New names are suggested at first, but there's almost never a name selection crowner before a "should we" crowner.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:09:35 PM by INUH

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#123: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:10:23 PM

@Cryptic: How often do you check the TRS? If it's only once a week, yeah, you'll miss a lot of rename crowners, since they can be called after 3 days (or the next weekday if that would fall on a weekend) if votes have stabilized heavily in favor of one option or the other.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#124: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:11:36 PM

[up][up][up]Maybe just take people to this page the first time they click the forum button.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:12:22 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#125: Apr 12th 2011 at 4:12:17 PM

The single prop "does this need a rename" crowners generally go quite fast, so unless you check in on a daily basis they're easy to miss.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[up]It might help if each of the headings on that page linked to the appropriate subforum.

edited 12th Apr '11 4:13:20 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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