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thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#26: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:24:27 PM

Giving people a place to bitch vs bitching on the main page. We could certainly do a trial run where the darth wiki is unavailable to see if it results in an increase of whining on the main page or if they just go away.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#27: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:26:40 PM

[up][up] The mods have ban-hammers and the rule on complaint threads. Any trouble can be removed.

edited 8th Apr '11 5:29:52 PM by SpellBlade

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#28: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:27:42 PM

We have seen persistent ban-evaders before. Even if dealt with swiftly, they can still cause a lot of trouble.

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#29: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:29:45 PM

[up]

(My previous post edited this in after you posted)

These are the same guys who complained about the YMMV segregation, they're already annoyed.

edited 8th Apr '11 5:30:07 PM by SpellBlade

PDown It's easy, mmkay? Since: Jan, 2012
It's easy, mmkay?
#30: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:31:16 PM

That's not really my point. My point is "If we're putting the stuff that people argue about in a separate area, why do we have to keep DIFFERENT separate areas for specific assorted 'good' and 'bad' stuff and keep some (but not all) of that 'good' and 'bad' stuff out of the generic separate area for stuff people argue about?"

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#31: Apr 8th 2011 at 5:35:06 PM

Actually, we had a thread on Darth Wiki a while back, but nothing came out of it.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12976702120A00120100&page=1

[up]

  • Sugar Wiki = pure gushing
  • Darth Wiki = pure whining

edited 8th Apr '11 5:36:01 PM by SpellBlade

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#32: Apr 8th 2011 at 7:24:26 PM

Wouldn't it be possible to make all pothole leading to these namespace to appear in red? Like the one for This Troper. That way it will (likely) stop appearing in the main wiki.

HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#33: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:01:16 PM

Our "mission" is the latter. It was never really the former, but the informality permitted by the wiki's early history gave the mistaken impression that it was and attracted a large number of users who are now offput by our attempt to draw it back to the basics.
"We always had a dress code, we just didn't enforce it for five years."

And again, it's not like the people who came in wearing jeans right after the dress code stopped being enforced aren't being made to go home and change. But there's not a lot of notice about the dress code, and a lot of indications that there isn't one still, and so a lot of people feel — and are reacting as though — they're being picked on.

A specific suggestion, since I do kind of seem to be whining: possibly one of the most-cited things in any argument against almost any change is the front page saying "We are not Wikipedia: we're a buttload more informal." And people who cite that are roundly mocked. So clearly there are at least two vastly different interpretations of what "We Are Not Wikipedia" means — which, I suspect, is why that's now a redlink. That should be made much clearer, if not by changing the text on the Home Page, perhaps by re-linking Welcome To TV Tropes and rewriting that as needed to actually do what it's supposed to.

Also, as I said in all the threads for the other big changes in the past, this is not everybody's wiki, you aren't personally paying for it.
That really doesn't mean I'm not allowed to like or not like things. It only means I'm not entitled to make demands about how the place is run.

It would probably be possible to phase it out. But deleting it outright would not end well.
This is probably the best, most concise explanation of the current policy towards Darth WikiEDIT , pretending it doesn't exist without actually deleting it.
We have chosen to do something very difficult. Soliciting a friendly, breezy tone from all those authors who want to help contribute.

This brings with it some sets of problems. One set: There is always going to be a contingent who has a different take on what makes up breeziness. Another problem set: There are people who really have no idea how to do friendly. There are also people who would not like to be friendly. The would rather be bitter and nasty

[...]
We then have to find a way to keep folks pulling in that direction. That's not ever going to be easy, and it will never be accomplished without some group having difficulty accepting that their definition of breezy isn't everyone's definition of breezy.
Then maybe "breezy" is too vague.

I understand that, for both practical and philosophical reasons, you don't like the idea of there being lots of rules. I understand why, at least the practical part. But a likely consequence of that is that it'll go in a direction you don't want. And there are ways around that, but I can't imagine that's not tedious and frustrating.

Probably as long as I've been reading the left-hand fora, I've gotten the impression that you have a very specific idea of what the wiki should look like and an aversion to lists of a priori rules. And you seem to have chosen to sacrifice the first to the second, but you're trying to minimize the sacrifice.

And people who just want to be nasty should fuck right the hell off.

edited 8th Apr '11 8:25:32 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
wuggles (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#34: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:04:35 PM

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Okay, you don't like the changes. What's keeping you here if you hate it so much? You're not really offering any solutions.

blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#35: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:06:00 PM

I'm not getting that Hershele hates it, I'm getting that he is concerned about a disconnect that he sees between the stated mission of the wiki and the usage.

PDown It's easy, mmkay? Since: Jan, 2012
It's easy, mmkay?
#36: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:06:43 PM

Casual Fridays-Plaid Only

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#37: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:11:24 PM

...pretending it doesn't exist without actually deleting it.

That's not what I meant at all. I meant that if we were to get rid of Darth Wiki, it would be best to delete it piece by piece, in small increments, taking out the stuff that is least-used first, until it is all gone, rather than take it out in one fell swoop.

As for the front page, we are more informal than Wikipedia. But we are not an anarchy. We have no restrictions on the creation of Works Pages (which is what There Is No Such Thing As Notability actually means), we don't require sources, and we encourage the use of (to use Eddie's word) breezy language, language that eschews the research paper style Wikipedia has adopted.

edited 8th Apr '11 8:11:40 PM by BadWolf21

PDown It's easy, mmkay? Since: Jan, 2012
It's easy, mmkay?
#38: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:14:06 PM

If we did go about removing Darth and Sugar Wikis, then what would we do about the dual-wiki'd gimmick pages like Candle Cove and Eversion?

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#39: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:15:15 PM

I believe the Darth Wiki is also where we leave unpublished works isn't it?

Fight smart, not fair.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#40: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:18:22 PM

Darth Wiki itself is remarkably well-behaved. It has a contingent of curators that keep it that way.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#41: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:20:43 PM

Well, it is now that Complain About Shows You Dont Like is gone. IIRC, that actually got to the point where someone used the phrase "okay, now I'm going to complain about you" unironically.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#42: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:24:13 PM

Come to think of it, I think concealing Darth Wiki actually helps address the issue I intended to raise here: it's not what TV Tropes stands for, it's not really compatible with what TV Tropes stands for, so it's not treated in a way that risks people thinking it's an example of what they should be doing.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#43: Apr 8th 2011 at 8:36:11 PM

[up][up][up]It is for stuff like so bad it's horrible, but pages like wallbanger are still a mess.

In addition, DethroningMoment.Zero Punctuation was locked due to edit-warring, even when the page required signed examples and had about three curators.

DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#44: Apr 9th 2011 at 6:31:35 AM

[up] I remember hating that page before the rules where in place, but when I saw it with the new restrictions I thought "This isn't so bad. I still don't like it very much., but at least they can keep it clean."

I'm almost a little sad to here it got a locked over edit war-ing.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#45: Apr 9th 2011 at 8:53:52 PM

Quoth the Fast one:

The wiki is for its readers. It is not fundamentally for its authors, the tropers.

I think this is basically at the core of a lot about how the wiki is becoming more "draconian". A lot of people who edit the wiki seem to not understand that the point of the wiki is list tropes in fiction for the benefit of those who read the wiki. A lot of changes that are being opposed are things that make the wiki tougher for tropers, but overall make the wiki a lot better for non-tropers who read it.

J. Random Dude isn't going to give a crap whether the wiki uses strikethrough or not.

So I think it's nice that we finally officially pointed out the thing that I think we all need to remember:

The wiki is about the tropes, not the tropers.

Also, I think wuggles hit the nail on the head with this:

The way I feel is, this site is not just made for "tropers". Other people come here too, people who never edit a page. If the first page I was linked to on this site was some works page full of opinions, Fan Wanking, sarcastic strikethroughs, long running gags and a page full of inside jokes I don't get (Darth Wiki) I would never come back because I would think it was just another obsessive fan wiki or Encyclopedia Dramatica type thing.

I echo this sentiment. This wiki is a selfless effort, and everyone's primary goal should be to make Tv Tropes as appealing for as many people as we possibly can. And if this means that sometimes we, as individual tropers, have to bite the bullet, so be it.

EDIT: On a completely different note, are there any statistics regarding the number of hits that the site received that show how many hits come from tropers and how many come from non-tropers.

edited 9th Apr '11 8:56:56 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#46: Apr 9th 2011 at 9:12:25 PM

A lot of changes that are being opposed are things that make the wiki tougher for tropers, but overall make the wiki a lot better for non-tropers who read it.
I'm not sure I agree with either of those characterizations, unless I have an overly narrow understanding of "tougher."

edited 9th Apr '11 9:18:11 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#47: Apr 9th 2011 at 9:21:09 PM

^^ People who edit make up just over 1% of all traffic. That is, about 99% of traffic are non-editing readers.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#50: Apr 9th 2011 at 10:04:48 PM

@Hershele: All I mean is that when Eddie chooses what markup to keep and what to get rid of is determined by what will make the wiki better for readers, not what is most convenient for tropers. I.e. as an editor, strikethrough is nice to have for making jokes and whatever, but of the 99% of visitors who don't edit, I think it's a safe assumption that not many of them are going to care about whether or not strikethrough is used. That's the baseline (I think) that Eddie is using when he determines what to make available for editors.

Whenever we look at how we edit, it should be "what will make the wiki look good to all these people who read it", not "what do I, as an editor of this wiki, want to be able to do".

Hopefully that makes sense. I'm kinda tired at the moment.

edited 9th Apr '11 10:06:19 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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