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Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#176: Apr 18th 2011 at 8:48:45 PM

Yes? And? It is well written.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#177: Apr 18th 2011 at 8:50:41 PM

Explain why they are poorly written, and provide examples of this done right.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#178: Apr 18th 2011 at 8:53:28 PM

I'm not holding up the quality of their writing, Clarste; I'm disputing your claim that they are fundamentally nothing but Trope X and Trope Y. Yes, at a certain level, even deep characters have basic archetypes as their foundations; I'm arguing that Ohana and Minko have more to their characters, and consequently more to their interactions, than your earlier post suggests.

It's been fun.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#179: Apr 18th 2011 at 8:57:30 PM

They're well written but it's still a poor basis of a romance. The personality archetypes are explicitly designed to not make progress and there's no indication that the characters are being being developed outside those archetypes in that particular direction. It's not the characters, it's their potential for romantic interactions. There are only so many possibilities within that framework. And frankly watching them grow out of that framework would of course undermine the whole nature of the "I want to see a romance between these characters" because of course if they moved too far beyond it they'd no longer be the same characters that this current judgment is based on.

edited 18th Apr '11 8:57:41 PM by Clarste

ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#181: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:03:31 PM

It could undermine it. It could also strengthen my feelings on the matter. Change and growth could lead to the two becoming closing though it would change the relationship dynamics. There's still a damn good chance of my squeeing over the thought of the two being romantically involved. I like when characters change a lot. It shows that they are people.

I honestly doubt that their whole characters will be wildly changed, but I do believe that they will grow and change quite a bit as will their relationship with one another. That isn't necessarily a death knell to romance. Hell my relationship with Weiss moved from "You're a bitchy whore and I hope you get banned and stabbed in the foot" to what we have now.

I honestly doubt they will get together in the canon of the series, but hey that's what fanfiction is for.

^No there isn't and there likely never will be. The shipping is based on crazy fan shit. Crazy fan shit that I am all behind.

edited 18th Apr '11 9:04:24 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#182: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:06:37 PM

There's a romance?

Perhaps you could consider following the conversation rather than apparently responding to things out of context.

[up]My point is that your desires are fundamentally kind of shallow. You want these two characters to get together in spite of who they are, and not as a natural extension of who they are. Personally I can't respect shipping of that category at all, as it feels fundamentally selfish. My original goal was to scold you for this, but it seems you're already aware of it so whatever.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#183: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:08:42 PM

Are you arguing that character development is Character Derailment? It only makes sense for a character to react and/or behave differently at the end of twenty-six episodes' worth of character development. Disregarding for a moment whether or not I agree with you on the matter of Ohana and Minko being designed for minimal development outside of certain archetypes (I emphatically do not, as it happens), you're defining "these characters" too narrowly. It's true in a pedantic sense that Ohana from episode 1 and Ohana from episode 26 are not technically the same character, but to argue that a relationship shows no potential for growth due to an overly narrow interpretation of what constitutes 'the same character' is silly.

It's been fun.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#184: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:08:53 PM

Yes I am very aware of the nature of the nature behind all this. I've thought it out a great deal. I have decided that it's not inherently bad. It's just how I go about it. So long as I am not a bitch about it it's fine for me to treat fiction like my personal playground to toy with in the realm of fanfiction. I respect canon and accept it regardless of what said canon is. In fact I often like it. This does not stop my rampant shipping and liking of fanfiction though.

It just gives me more to enjoy!

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#186: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:13:40 PM

Are you arguing that character development is Character Derailment? It only makes sense for a character to react and/or behave differently at the end of twenty-six episodes' worth of character development. Disregarding for a moment whether or not I agree with you on the matter of Ohana and Minko being designed for minimal development outside of certain archetypes (I emphatically do not, as it happens), you're defining "these characters" too narrowly. It's true in a pedantic sense that Ohana from episode 1 and Ohana from episode 26 are not technically the same character, but to argue that a relationship shows no potential for growth due to an overly narrow interpretation of what constitutes 'the same character' is silly.

I am only speaking of the hypothetical romance scenario. That and that alone. What you're saying does not actually address what I said at all, which is perhaps my fault but I also feel that you're becoming overly defensive of the series in what is completely a misunderstanding of what I'm saying.

The phrase I used was "there's no indication that the characters are being being developed outside those archetypes in that particular direction". Emphasis added just now, and that's the important part. There is no indication that they'll grow in that particular direction, that direction being the "shipping" direction. That is and has been the only subject of my recent posts, a fundamental fact that perhaps you have missed completely?

I agree with Red Savant.

Unfortunately this means little as it has been established that you are not following the conversation.

ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#187: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:17:10 PM

I was agreeing about character development, not shipping.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#188: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:18:56 PM

But of course agreeing with the statement absent of the context it was made in still means little.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#189: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:26:02 PM

I personally have little to no investment in whether their relationship expands in "that direction". I'll admit that I misread your post as applying to their character types and interactions as a whole rather than specifically through the shipping lens, and I may be becoming overly defensive of the series - but in response to a post I find overly critical, I feel justified in doing so. On that note, I have to say I take some issue with your tone, particularly to Ninjaclown. He's obviously following the discussion, so repeatedly hammering your facetious claim that he hasn't to downplay his opinion isn't exactly polite.

edited 18th Apr '11 9:26:16 PM by RedSavant

It's been fun.
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#190: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:26:58 PM

I agree with Clarste.

grin

edited 18th Apr '11 9:27:45 PM by Sackett

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#191: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:28:48 PM

...!

Ohana/Her grandmother.

I must make this a reality one day.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#192: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:30:23 PM

Damnit Aon you are not helping.

It's been fun.
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#194: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:32:32 PM

Well of course not. I am Aondeug, shipper extraordinaire.

^Keikaku doori...

edited 18th Apr '11 9:32:47 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#195: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:33:13 PM

Well, fundamentally I was only addressing Aon and her ilk in the first place, and that side of the conversation has gone swimmingly for my purposes. Unfortunately I seem to have been misinterpreted by other people who didn't quite realize what I was addressing, which frustrated me, because it seemed like they were trying to take part in a conversation that wasn't about what they thought it was.

Good job Aon, keep it up.

edited 18th Apr '11 9:33:38 PM by Clarste

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#196: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:33:54 PM

My ilk. I like that sound of that.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#197: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:39:02 PM

I have to agree with you now, come to think of it, Clarste. I dislike people who just throw people together like slabs of meat; at that point it's nothing but a masturbatory aid, and fundamentally disrespectful to the characters and their writers.

I still like you well enough, though, Aon.

edited 18th Apr '11 9:39:41 PM by RedSavant

It's been fun.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#198: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:41:12 PM

Of course you do. I'm so awesome it doesn't matter too much if I am selfish idiot.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#199: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:44:07 PM

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#200: Apr 18th 2011 at 9:45:07 PM

Don't hate the playa, hate the game?


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