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What do you think about school uniforms?

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MalagasyParrot Wh'joo lookin' at? Since: Apr, 2010
Wh'joo lookin' at?
#301: Apr 5th 2011 at 9:51:21 PM

You should see my old school. Its dress code is the equivalent of that of Democratic Kampuchea where your drab mustn't only come with the school badge, but also a name tag and serial number (not on plastic badges, but patches permanently stitched onto your shirt). They even had restrictions on haircuts and the length of fingernails; break any of these rules and they'll make you pay a dollar fine.

I developed an instinctive disgust towards uniforms as a result of this.

edited 5th Apr '11 9:55:18 PM by MalagasyParrot

SPACETRAVEL from ☉ Since: Oct, 2010
#302: Apr 5th 2011 at 10:21:18 PM

I like uniforms. While I have nothing against self-expression, I think that the ability to work with a few restrictions on it in the name of something bigger than yourself is valuable.

edited 5th Apr '11 10:21:43 PM by SPACETRAVEL

whoever wrote this shit needs to step on a rake in a comedic fashion
kashchei Since: May, 2010
#303: Apr 5th 2011 at 10:31:42 PM

If you can't self-express without talking, that's a problem.

If you can't self-express without writing, that's a problem.

Talking and writing are actual means of expression, whereas being clothed is not.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#304: Apr 5th 2011 at 11:47:12 PM

Art is expression, fashion is an art, fashion is expression.

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#305: Apr 6th 2011 at 7:35:50 AM

Clothing =/= fashion.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#306: Apr 6th 2011 at 7:40:32 AM

It can be.

But that's not the point. Whether it's an "expression" or not, clothing is an individual choice. And any limitation of that better has a damn good justification - and there are none, really, for school uniforms.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#307: Apr 6th 2011 at 7:44:04 AM

I am in favor of teachers wearing an uniform. They are service staff, it makes sense.

But why students? Why should a client have to wear an uniform in order to make use of a service that they (or, better, their parents) bought through their taxes or (in the case of private schools) with their own money?

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#308: Apr 6th 2011 at 7:48:28 AM

[up] I've stated my point repeatedly in the past few pages but nobody gives it a damn.

School uniforms can be seen as a way of cultivating a sense of discipline and a collective identity. Discipline and obedience, as in obeying your better and wear uniforms while you could wear something else. And collective identity, as in, your clothing identifies you with your other schoolmates and thereby cultivating your attachment to that community.

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Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#309: Apr 6th 2011 at 7:59:58 AM

School uniforms can be seen as a way of cultivating a sense of discipline and a collective identity.
How are that desirable things? Okay, a school needs a modicum of discipline to work, to do its job, but school uniforms have nothing to do with it. And a 'collective identity' or any such surely isn't needed for a school doing its job.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#310: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:02:43 AM

I don't know how it goes on your side of the world, but in my country those two qualities are considered essential enough by both parents and schools to warrant uniforms.

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Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#311: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:03:40 AM

^^^ The value of discipline and collective identity is vastly overstated, I think.

I want students to develop their personal identities and learn how to relate with other persons on an individual basis, not to consider themselves as a part of an amorphous and mostly interchangeable mass.

And "obeying your better"? Seriously? I never considered teachers my "betters", and I would have been deeply offended by the suggestion. They were employees who had been tasked with giving me knowledge: they deserved to be addressed respectfully, like anyone else, and I had to do what I could to provide them with a good working environment - this was in my own interests, by the way, since I was the one who benefited from them. They had a duty towards me, not the other way around.

The only people whose authority I was willing to accept were my parents, and even then, I was not willing to accept it without question. In any case, they made it very clear since I was four or so that they did expect me to freely criticize their decisions whenever I felt they were incorrect, and they rarely gave me explicit orders - rather, they gave me suggestions, and they even helped me to deal with the consequences whenever I messed up.

edited 6th Apr '11 8:04:00 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#312: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:06:36 AM

[up] That is very much a culture thing. In the Oriental, teachers are not just employees of a school who receive payment to teach you. They are regarded as your masters, your superiors, someone with a moral obligation to guide you on your path and someone who you have a moral obligation to obey. Therefore, not only do they have a duty towards you, you have a duty towards them, which arguably is heavier than their duty to you.

There is a historical reason to that reasoning, but it would not be suitable in a thread like this one. Suffice to say, not everything was measurable by money was at the core of this mentality.

edited 6th Apr '11 8:08:07 AM by ArgeusthePaladin

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Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#313: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:09:32 AM

I don't know how it goes on your side of the world, but in my country those two qualities are considered essential enough by both parents and schools to warrant uniforms.
That may be so, but it's reactionary... nonsense, really. 'Obeying your betters', bah.

edited 6th Apr '11 8:10:03 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#314: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:10:43 AM

Read my above post. It is very much a cultural essence that is very hard to translate without name-calling and all that. Which you already did.

Verdict: Values Dissonance is a bitch.

edited 6th Apr '11 8:11:31 AM by ArgeusthePaladin

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Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#315: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:16:13 AM

As far as I'm concerned such attitudes of basically social authoritarianism are always wrong, no matter when and where - though of course they are more excusable if they are the norm somewhere. Still, they hence make not good arguments for school uniforms.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#316: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:18:11 AM

Ok. It is a cultural thing. But, of course, this does not mean that it cannot be criticized.

In particular, I would argue that blind obedience to authority is an extremely dangerous trait to encourage: children should not be brats, but they should not be afraid to question teachers or to express their own individuality either.

In any case, if you can pull the "cultural thing" argument then perhaps I can too? After all, suspicion of authority is one of the fundamental characters of modern Western culture...

edited 6th Apr '11 8:19:47 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#317: Apr 6th 2011 at 8:20:10 AM

Well, that is where our point differs. You are talking to a representative of a culture in which throughout history the so-called "social authoritarianism" had been the norm, and working fairly well, if I have to say that myself.

I'd also try to argue the point of "always wrong", since at its core without any solid, quantitative measure as to what is right and what is wrong, your attitude could be summed up as your personal opinion, which can itself be wrong. But that would derail this conversation even further.

[up] Yes. Which I appreciate. After all, questioning of authorities had gotten the West so far until now. That does not mean it cannot be pushed to its logical extreme - the bratty teenage archetype is that much more common in the West than in the East, where they've been sort of molded into a frame since birth.

The bottom line is, while I do understand that there are severe consequences either extreme - a class of brats with extreme disrespect of authority and huge sense of entitlement on one end, and a generation of senseless yes-men who cannot think outside the box or question their superior for life, I do feel that there are some qualities that are best educated to a child as he/she grows up.

edited 6th Apr '11 8:24:37 AM by ArgeusthePaladin

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SPACETRAVEL from ☉ Since: Oct, 2010
#318: Apr 6th 2011 at 10:14:53 AM

I do feel that there are some qualities that are best educated to a child as he/she grows up.
Kind of what I posted further up. I see what you're saying, too, Argeus.

whoever wrote this shit needs to step on a rake in a comedic fashion
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#319: Apr 6th 2011 at 10:28:13 AM

Teachers and how I view them: I have viewed teachers as my betters for many years. They're the ones teaching my dumb ass. I am not their equal nor should I be considered such. I can be friendly with teachers and develop close relationships with them, but they are my superiors. My default is to respect teachers. Many are fuck ups of teachers of course and those teachers lose that respect. In general though my teachers were pretty damn awesome.

I believe that teachers and students have a duty to one another. They both have to be respectful and both work to keep the base respect they get as well as earn more respect. They both have to work together. The student has to do what they are told. The teacher has to teach. It isn't a one way street though it can become one depending on the teachers and students. I've had a few teachers who were mostly useless assholes and more or less had to teach myself.

College professors and being able to refer to them by their first names strikes me as very odd. It just doesn't seem right to be able to do that. So I don't. They get called professor and my bizarre need for hierarchy is fulfilled.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
kashchei Since: May, 2010
#320: Apr 6th 2011 at 1:47:31 PM

"But that's not the point. Whether it's an "expression" or not, clothing is an individual choice. And any limitation of that better has a damn good justification - and there are none, really, for school uniforms."

There are plenty: cultivating a sense of appropriate attire, removing distractions that come with focusing on fashion and judging people on their style, encouraging socializing among different groups by not having clothes be an obvious bar between the cliques, and, most importantly, forcing you to form ways of expressing yourself verbally rather than through nail polish and "witty" t-shirts.

On a personal note, if you find that your self-expression is dramatically stunted by your inability to wear any damn thing you please, I'm inclined to think your thoughts are generally not worth expressing.

edited 6th Apr '11 1:48:19 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#321: Apr 6th 2011 at 5:01:32 PM

There are plenty: cultivating a sense of appropriate attire,
Why is the school uniform "appropriate", but what students want to wear isn't? Not all school uniforms are business clothes, you know, and for that matter not everyone will work someplace that requires business clothes.

Besides, I can say right now that I would wear collared shirts much more often now than I would had my school not forced me to wear them.

removing distractions that come with focusing on fashion and judging people on their style,
This is true, but one argument does not a point make.

encouraging socializing among different groups by not having clothes be an obvious bar between the cliques,

Ha no. Any social group worth its salt can distinguish between its members and outsiders just as well without clothing.

If all your friends along with two other guys showed up to a party dressed like Chuck Norris, could you identify the two other guys?

and, most importantly, forcing you to form ways of expressing yourself verbally rather than through nail polish and "witty" t-shirts.

On a personal note, if you find that your self-expression is dramatically stunted by your inability to wear any damn thing you please, I'm inclined to think your thoughts are generally not worth expressing.

<And most importantly, forcing you to form ways of expressing yourself on paper rather than through talking, and occasional gestures.

On a personal note, if you find that your self-expression is dramatically stunted by your inability to say any damn thing you please, I'm inclined to think your thoughts are generally not worth expressing.>

Your way makes sense if and only if my way makes sense.

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#322: Apr 6th 2011 at 5:24:49 PM

My feelings on expression through clothing: I can only understand this in a few ways. One is related to my crossdressing and my desire to be male at times. I can express that through clothing. Just somewhat though. There's other aspects to it, but the clothes are important to it. My girl's clothing is important in a similar way. There's certainly a style of clothing I pick to wearing for both. Said style isn't so important to me that I wouldn't want a uniform though. Nope. These are around for my spare time and I will express myself as I see fit during those times.

Then there's things like work, school, and various other formalized settings. You look and act the part. It can show respect too. You don't go to the Wat in short shorts for example. Because that's just fucking rude. It can be very important to acting and other performance arts as well. Can be. The level of importance depends on the production itself.

Restrictions on clothing can be and are a form of expression just one you don't have as much or any control over. The Sangha express certain things through the restrictions on clothing they have for example. The colors of the robes express certain information as well. The exact shades can tell you what country a particular Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni is from. The colors themselves have significance though said significance has slipped my mind at the moment. Orange, red, and yellow are the three big Buddhist colors though. Except in Japan where black and white reign supreme.

edited 6th Apr '11 5:27:24 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
JinxedBlackcat The Ultimate Bifauxnen from Blurry Edges of Genderfluidity Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
The Ultimate Bifauxnen
#323: Apr 6th 2011 at 6:25:24 PM

Back in high school I would have loathed the idea of uniforms. Mainly because I loath skirts with a passion and uniforms generally mean I'd be forced to wear a skirt. I can't wear pants cause that's the boy's uniform thing. (something I think is bullshit. pants are unisex now damnit)

But I wear a uniform at work (well its an apron, work shirt and black pants). And well, it makes me feel like an NPC. An unimportant NPC that most Heroes/Players ignore. But that may be the fact I'm sorta bottom of the totem pole at a supermarket.

Real Life rwby rose
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#324: Apr 6th 2011 at 6:27:06 PM

Really? Huh. I never felt like that when I had to wear the Petco uniform.

On skirts and shit: I'd rather it be so that one was allowed to adopt the uniform of whichever sex they felt appropriate...BUT I CAN ONLY DREAM.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
KitsuneInferno Jackass Detector from East Tennessee Since: Apr, 2009
Jackass Detector
#325: Apr 6th 2011 at 6:30:07 PM

I'm opposed to uniforms, but mainly because I couldn't stand to commute in one. Given my luck traveling to school, I need to wear something that doesn't stain easily and is durable.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

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