Red Vs Blue General Discussion

I would have. No resolution on Donut, Doc, or Lopez? No clarification on whether Junior or Sister were even alive anymore? No following up on the Obviously Evil Malcolm Hargrove, who the "Insurrection" were working for? There would a tad few too many loose ends.

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The Chorus Trilogy resolved the Insurrection, the Chairman, and the Great Key plot lines, so I agree that it’s the best ending point (though Season 14 works as an after show).

Shatter Squad works as a new guard in theory, but they dropped the ball on execution. Season 15 could have been focused on the changing of the old guard to the new guard and then the next three seasons be an extended version of Zero (with more development and humor).

Eh... Season 13 would have ended on a Bolivian Army Ending, so I'm not sure it's the best endpoint. I'd say Season 15 had the most plots resolved, so if you had to end the story of the BGC, you could end it there, just remove the part of Donut getting zapped and show them seeing Wash recovering in the hospital.

Granted, even then that would still leave Simmons, Donut, and Sister underdeveloped, and the latter two only got development via The Shisno Paradox and Singularity. So you could say Singularity is a good end point... but then that leaves the plotline with Locus unresolved.

It's hard to find a point you could end it all for the BGC since each season ends with things either inconclusive or with hints at something more to come. They even acknowledge this In-Universe via the finale for Season 14 and the PSA's. The story never truly ends, and they still have stories to tell... which makes it all the more confusing they changed to a completely different cast of underdeveloped characters when the PSA's even joked about how that would likely fail! And not even an old PSA, this was one of their latest!

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And yes, that is a plot thread still left unresolved. Locus was last seen in Season 15 on his Redemption Quest trying to hunt down the Blues and Reds for killing a colony of refugees, but had to leave to get Wash medical attention. Word of God is that Locus was also on his own Alien Prophecy quest like Tucker once was, hence where he got the ship "A'rynasea".

He was however mentioned in "The Shisno Paradox", namely having sent a message to the BGC before Grif crashed the Pelican so no one would notice it, as part of his whole "Preemptive Laziness" by avoiding Incendiary Incidents. The mere fact Locus was sending them a message though should have been a hint to something being wrong, since he made clear the Reds and Blues drive him nuts and he gets frustrated dealing with them, so for him to be reaching out to them means something has to be wrong.

It's why I thought Locus might show up in Zero, and that the thing he was trying to contact them about would be made into the Viper Syndicate, since apparently the Great Keys can count as "Keys" for Zero's quest, so it's entirely possible they could have targeted Locus at first before shifting to Tucker. Locus however proved nowhere to be seen though, so that idea went out the window.

It still however leaves that an unresolved plot thread. And no, Gray leaving Rooster Teeth doesn't impede them from using Locus since they can easily recast him.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 11th 2021 at 1:37:58 PM

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Resolutions for what? It's not like they were going through major character arcs. These three tended to drop in and out of the show all the time.

Again, very minor characters. Resolutions would've been nice, but they hadn't been mentioned for years at this point, so most people probably wouldn't have even noticed.

Calling The Chairman Obviously Evil at this point is a stretch, considering the bulk of his involvement up to now has been assisting in taking down the Big Bad and displaying moral outrage at their crimes. By this point, the only morally questionable thing The Chairman had done was send Wash and the Meta after Epsilon, but that's hardly the most heinous thing anyone's done on this show, and the Reds and Blues were committing a major crime. In Reconstruction, he actually fills the role of the Big Good.

And him being in charge of the Insurrection was another retcon from the Chorus Trilogy. The intention behind the "Charon Industries" ship was just to show that Project Freelancer was a tool of Corporate Warfare, Burnie never intended for it to be anything more than that, definitely not for The Chairman to be behind all of it.

The Great Key plot hadn't been mentioned for over five years by this point, and still wouldn't be for another three, and it was also a relic from when the show was pure Random Events Plot. Nobody sincerely expected them to revisit it, and I'm sorry, but anyone that says they did is lying.

Seriously, The Blood Gulch Chronicles did not have some grand Myth Arc in play. It was complete nonsense.

Edited by Primis on Jan 11th 2021 at 12:10:26 PM

That's what makes the show great, IMO. Not that there were any big plans for any of this. But that through solid comedy and random events, they took the pieces of lore they had and built it into something grander and more serious, without forgetting the personalities that won them an audience to begin with. It's the reason why Zero's failed so hard, and why personally I've not cared for the more plot focused sections of RWBY. RT is very, very good at making fun, easily followable dialogue that feels natural, and playing off the interactions that come of it. You can have all the ambition and drama you like, but without that foundation, without a reason to care about the characters, none of it is going to pack as much of a punch.

It's why I so heavily appreciate that Miles went back to basics with Chorus before delving into his own ideas. We got accustomed to the new status quo, but we were also following up on bits of character development from before while the plot was being set up in the background. It had to construct its own plot arc with largely brand new villains from what came before, and it earned the right to be serious.

"No will to break."

Maybe we should have gotten a prequel season focusing on the mercs instead of Zero.

Honestly a prequel about Locus and Felix dealing with pre-Chorus stuff would be great.

As for Season 10 as the Grand Finale vs Season 15

While Doc and Lopez were minor, I've said it before - we lose a lot of great scenes without Seasons 11 through 15. Doc regaining his Omalley personality. Lopez finding out that Donut and Grif can understand him.

Andrews and Jax were great sequel characters. Church getting his big goodbye. All of the AI drama. Carolina and Wash's developing friendship.

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

And how great Locus and Felix turned out to be. They have some of the show's best interactions. They're the kind of people that have known each other far too long, and are familiar with of their quirks, yet hate each other all the same.

"No will to break."

Yeah, I enjoyed their back and forth. Felix being a good foil for Tucker as well. I've scarcely seen such a likable douche, let alone one that had a Heel–Face Turn.

I'm still confused by exactly what happened in Felix and Locus's flashback with their squad. I need to go back and compare that to what we saw in Season 14.

Edited by FOFD on Jan 11th 2021 at 1:48:17 AM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

The Merc Trilogy in Season 14 is set after they left the War but before they became flat out Mercenaries. They basically went from Soldiers to Bounty Hunters to Mercenaries. Something happened in between fighting Reuban Lozano and working under Hargrove to change them, since Felix actually pretends to have morals and Locus isn't obsessed with becoming the perfect Soldier, whatever happened likely being tied to why Siris is nowhere to be seen after that despite them all making it out of there alive. My guess is they took one more job, this one went really bad, Siris either died or was heavily crippled, and Locus and Felix succumbed to their PTSD and psychosis without Siris to act as their Morality Chain, making them into the people they'd be in the Chorus Trilogy.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 11th 2021 at 6:01:53 AM

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I like that those episodes are actually standalone. It gives enough new details about them, like learning their real names, but it's not just a cut and dry start of darkness. Fits with the point Vic makes with the intro, that the line between good intentions and evil isn't as clean as you'd hope. It also makes good use of more subtle character animation, like when Locus is just staring at himself for a sec, as if to say "is this really where I am now?"

"No will to break."

Heh, so funny thought, after what was said about them in Death Battle:

I think the Reds and Blues could actually take Team RWBY.

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

... Well, I think Tucker, Sarge, Lopez, and maybe Donut could stand a chance. Tex is always doomed to fail, Church can't shoot for shit, Simmons freezes up in front of girls, Grif can shoot but isn't that great at melee, and Caboose is only a good shot if led to think they're his teammates or if he's severely pissed off.

That's if only counting the ones in the Death Battle. If counting the others, Wash and Carolina could probably stand a chance, but Kai isn't that good a fighter really.

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I’m still waiting for Carolina vs. Pyrrha. Or Juane vs. Felix.

Either case ends with the RWBY character losing.

• Carolina even without Armor Enhancements and a leg injury is able to match the Mercs, and only barely lost to a version of herself in her prime when fighting the Labyrinth as her Freelancer self. Pyrrha meanwhile, while a prodigy, is still a student, and is easily matched if not beaten by non-students like Mercury, Penny, and especially Cinder. Carolina could likely run circles around her. The only advantage Pyrrha would have is her Polarity Semblance since Carolina is decked out in a suit of armor, but that's little in the grand scheme of things.
• Felix well, in his own words: "I'm a supreme know-it-all when it comes to a knife! Close-range combat's how I'm living my life!" While Jaune has gotten better since his days of being a rookie at Beacon, he's still largely a Tank and Support fighter. He lacks any efficient means of ranged combat, and Felix is fast enough to get around Jaune's shield and attack his blind spots. Remember, Felix has proven equal to Tucker and Wash in terms of fighting.

The fights would be heavily lopsided in favor of the RVB characters, and that's without including bonuses like Epsilon and Armor Enhancements for Carolina or the Great Key for Felix. Doesn't help that of the RWBY characters, one was still a student and the other is a Support/Tank facing a DPS.

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Yeah, if you believe in them surviving that explosion straight up, that puts their durability way above Team RWBY's.

Personally in terms of Rv B matchups, I would really like Sarge vs Solider from TF 2. Although that would probably be in poor taste considering Solider's VA recently died.

Edited by Thebrawlbro on Jan 16th 2021 at 7:26:45 AM

Ya know, if they do, and I seriously hope they do, bring back the BGC next season, I'd really like it if Simmons got the Character Focus this time. He's the only one of the BGC to not really get focus or an arc.

• Blue Team:
  • Season's 1-6 were pretty much Alpha Church's story, since even when it was an Ensemble Cast, he had the most focus overall.
  • The Chorus Trilogy was largely Tucker's story, most notable in Season 12 where he had to lead the BGC with the Rebels.
  • Caboose tends to develop at random, but the season's he got the most focus in were Seasons 7 and 15, being his desire to bring Church back via Epsilon and ultimately accepting Church was gone.
  • Kai gets a fair amount of character exploration in Season 16, establishing her as the actual Lovable Sex Maniac compared to Tucker.
  • Epsilon Church had Season 8, 9, and 13 as his focus, initially trying to find himself, relieving the Alpha's memories, and coming to terms that he was both his own person and likely going to die without knowing if his sacrifice meant anything.
• Red Team:
  • Sarge tended to be overall static but displayed some good Hidden Depths in Season 8 by putting aside his hatred of the Blues after learning the war was all a lie, and good development in Season 15 where he's forced to see how his PTSD has made him desire to remain in a conflict just so he has an idea about who he is anymore.
  • Grif was pretty much the main of Season 15, as he's forced to realize he does actually like the BGC and can't be without them despite being fed up with adventures, and followed it up in Season 16 as he tries to find a way to be with the gang still without adventures coming after them.
  • Donut was the one in the limelight for Seasons 16 and 17 as he comes to question his own self worth and evaluate himself as a person, ultimately decided to no longer be the butt of the joke and step up in his own right, culminating on going on a journey of Self Discovery.
  • Lopez largely developed in Seasons 1-5 by being disillusioned with the Reds, then started developing into more of a nihilist with the Chorus Trilogy.
  • Doc being often forgotten limited his chances for development, but Season 13 showed how the BGC's poor treatment of him ultimately made him snap, Season 15 demonstrated just how much resentment he'd been building up, and Season 17 had him come to terms with his own Split Personality and gain some self respect. (I know Doc's not a Red but he tends to hang out with them the most)
• Freelancers:
  • Beta Tex gets a fair amount of focus opposite Church in Seasons 1-5 and the flashback segments of Season 10, both in her willingness to do what's right even if it means hurting others.
  • Wash is pretty much the Deuteragonist of the whole series, being the main character opposite Alpha Church in Season 6 working to take down the Project, a main antagonist for the rest of the Recollection before turning good again as he tried gaining his freedom, one of the leading players in the Chorus Trilogy as he tries stepping up as a leader for the BGC, and ultimately being only secondary to Donut in Season 17 as he comes to terms with his Cerebral Hypoxia.
  • Episilon Tex gets a good chunk of focus in Seasons 8 and 9, as she has to find out who she really is and make Epsilon realize what the Director and the Alpha couldn't.
  • Carolina is pretty much the main of Season 10 as she goes on her revenge quest against her father, Season 13 has her as one of the leads as her past comes back to haunt her and she starts to move away from her competitiveness, and Season 15 desiring to move past revenge even when her past comes to hurt the people she cares about, and Season 17 forces her to confront who she once was and see just how much she's truly changed.

Compared to them though, Simmons doesn't have much in the way of focus. At most you can say he got focus in Season 7 with his disillusionment with Sarge, but that got undone by Season 8. Aside from that the only real hints of depth he has are his father issues, the idea he acts smarter than he is to sound more important, that he truly values his friendship with Grif, and that he's surprisingly skilled with a knife. Even his scene in The Labyrinth, which explored everyone else's innermost fears or traumas, was just a joke about aliens taking his penis. Compare that to:

• Tucker being isolated and passing out from a panic attack after fearing he let everyone down.
• Caboose being literally starved since he has no actual fears that he hasn't already come to terms with.
• Kai having accidentally burned down the family home and fearing Grif would denounce her.
• Wash having to watch the BGC die all around him as he's helpless to save them.
• Sarge finding dissatisfaction with both a civilian life and actual war.
• Grif being forced to suffer through the source of his laziness.
• Lopez losing what makes him unique by becoming human and speaking english.
• Carolina having to face her past self and see just how bad she used to be.

And yet Simmons is just aliens going "We will utilize your penis for scientific experiments!" as he runs away. Simmons really needs development, he needs done to him what The Chorus Trilogy did for Tucker, what The Shisno Paradox did for Kai, and what Singularity did for Donut: He needs a season where he's no longer just a vehicle for jokes, and instead made into a fleshed out character in his own right.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Where's RvB's DB fight? I haven't seen it yet.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I think I linked to it in either the RWBY or the Death Battle thread.

You can also Youtube it.

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

I agree with the above fully, but at this point I'd be amazed to see them write a good season to develop Simmons. As is often stated this show has had 2 or 3 fantastic stop points.

If Simmons were to be developed I think he should come into the Zero universe and find himself among Shatter Squad.

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

Remember, while Season 15 and The Shisno Paradox are divisive, Singularity is a lot more well received, and that season is what gave us good Donut development. While Zero is bad, I think it can still be salvaged provided there be a change in directors, or if Torrian has someone to counterbalance him. Joe Nicolosi got a lot of heat for the more hated episodes in The Shisno Paradox, but a lot of those episodes were written by Jason Weight, who became the lead writer on Singularity, it's just he had Miles to balance him out. Miles is responsible after all for what's considered the best period in RVB, The Chorus Trilogy, and did some of the more loved episodes in Singularity like Wash reliving his Freelancer Days. Maybe what's needed is having Miles return again to work as a co-writer to keep the writers for next season grounded.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Double post because the alerts on this thread are weird for me for some reason.

Anyone else think the Triplets could still be alive out there? Would be cool to have them come back. Wash and Carolina could definitely use the relief of people they knew from the project that weren't asshats or dead.

Also, another weird thing I noticed from rewatching Season 10. When they were dropping from the sky and 479er was having Delta calculate the right moment to pull the engines back on, Delta made a backup of himself. There's a backup of Delta still out there. We may have a means of getting Delta back.

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Seriously though, the alerts on the Followed Threads suck for this thread. The thread is always highlighted, it just takes you to the first page when you click on it regardless of whether or not a new post is there, it's just busted.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 18th 2021 at 12:02:10 PM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

I forgot about Delta's back-up, but I've always believed that the Triplets survived and are still having their twisted rivalry with the other team back on whatever that ice-planet was.

They have unfinished business with Wash, too — they got shipped out thinking he'd dropped them as friends when the truth was that no-one bothered telling Wash until after they'd left. Besides, he still needs to thank them for pointing out his plot-hole when he was trying to locate Carolina.

I'm not part of the RvB fandom, since I only watched the show for the first time last year. That also means I watched all seventeen series' in bulk (that was a hell of a binge). The only series I struggled with was the anthology (14?), which I didn't get on with even if I did appreciate the little bits of plot threading that it did. Were 15-16 really considered that bad? I thought they were pretty good. At the very least, I felt 15-17 worked very well when watched in bulk... 15 produced what I feel is one of the funniest flashbacks in the entire show.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 18th 2021 at 6:42:07 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I liked 15 for what it was. If anything, they should have kept the Blues and Reds as antagonists for longer than they did.

I remember the discourse when Miles took over the show back in Season 11, with people complaining that the show would be Ruined Forever. In hindsight, the Chorus Trilogy is a highly regarded storyline, though I also remember YouTuber fatmanfalling putting out an extremely negative review of 13.

Maybe. I don't think Zero is unsalvagable, but I can't put too much faith in writing credits. I don't follow the RVB fandom enough to be aware of which episodes were liked/hated and who was behind them.

That said, whoever wrote Washington's dialogue, or the moment in the Labyrinth when he was loading bullets with the names of his dead friends, deserves an award, a sword, and an axe.

Anyway, I think they should back away from the BGC and push Simmons into Zero's hemisphere. They did take Donut and Doc and give them substantial character arcs in spite of some less favorable preceding seasons, but I wouldn't bet on lightning striking twice.

EDIT: Wow this updated fast.

@wyld - what do you think of RVB overall?

I assume it was deleted/destroyed/secured by Project Freelancer.

Same. I had someone tell me that it was a let-down after Chorus and that the antagonists weren't as deadly but, like, I think that's acceptable. We just got off a mercenary team who could stalemate the best Freelancer in a fight. The Blues and Reds were more of a threat that the Reds and Blues could handle, and the conflict was focused on them with minimal intervention from Carolina/Wash.

We somehow tied in a Freelancer plot (soldiers trying to get revenge for what Carolina did) with a threat the Reds and Blues could reasonably face (simulation troopers who are coincidentally mirror images of them).

It merged the series traditional comedy with some of its heaviest emotional moments (Wash getting shot, Grif actually ditching everyone, Biff's death, Church coming to terms with death) better than Seasons 11 and 13, I'd say.

Edited by FOFD on Jan 18th 2021 at 10:57:19 AM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).