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Berrenta Heating things up from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Heating things up
Aug 12th 2019 at 9:28:19 PM

Thoughts on YMMV.Cat Planet? YMMV's should not be self-demonstrating (which gives all the sinkholes), plus there are a myriad of ZCE entries. Any examples worth salvaging?

Update: the main work page is like that too.

Edited by Berrenta on Aug 12th 2019 at 11:34:07 AM

Aug 24th 2019 at 6:40:30 AM

Please could I have some advice on the Fanon.RWBY page?

Looking at the trope description for fanon, the definition is that fanon is something that the fandom believes to be so true about the work, that they think it's established canon and treat it as such, sometimes causing issues if the fanon is ever debunked by the canon, leaving fans who didn't realise the difference to think the work is retconning or being inconsistent.

The Fanon.RWBY page has so many examples that it's been split into folders for organisation. However, a lot of the examples seem to be:

  • Various theories the fandom comes up with when discussing what they think is going on. Some of the theories are wide-spread and popular, but the fandom is well aware they're theories: in several cases, examples indicate there are several alternative or competing theories. This seems like it's WMG to me, and the vast majority of this page seems to be a substitute WMG page.
  • Conventions for fanfic storytelling that have become widespread. However, while fanfic writers may be using these conventions regularly as a 'storytelling norm' for the universe, there's no indication the fans believe these things are facts of the show. This does not seem to be the trope to me.
  • Making up assumptions about future events and even characters that turn out to have been incorrect assumptions. This seems to fall in between WMG and fanon. For example, the show was originally advertised with four trailers for each of the four main characters: the Red Trailer made fans think that Ruby Rose would be The Stoic and the White Trailer made fans think that Weiss Schnee would be tsundere. While they went to town on that and fanfic and fan art started appearing (even before the show had begun) based on those assumptions, no-one at the time treated it as fanon because there was no show yet. It was an assumption and perhaps even a hope that these characters would be this, and it was debunked within the very first two episodes. A lot of fans were upset to have their expectations dashed and for the personalities to be different to what they wanted, but it also wasn't the same thing as thinking the show had established a canon about these girls' personalities and then retconned or was being inconsistent due to fanon being treated as a fact. I'm therefore not sure where these kinds of examples would fall.
  • Actual, genuine examples of fanon.

I'm therefore thinking of creating a sandbox to sort the examples into one of the following categories based on the content in each example:

  • WMG (theories that should be moved to the WMG page if not already there, or deleted if they are)
  • Fanfic Conventions (Widespread and consistently used attitudes about the show's characters and worlds for the purposes of storytelling but which aren't confused by the fandom as actual facts of the work itself — I don't know if there's a correct place for them to go, or whether they'd be outright deleted in the end)
  • Fanon (Genuine examples of the trope that need to be kept)
  • Uncertain (Examples that are hard to confirm as currently written; for example, I'd put the above Red and White Trailer examples here)

Once the sandbox is made, get confirmation from this thread, or a more appropriate place, on which examples to keep and which to remove.

Once we know which examples are genuinely the trope, decide if there are enough to justify the continued existence of the sub-page. If so, replace the content of the page. If not, cut the page and move the surviving examples to the Fanon page.

What do people think?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 24th 2019 at 3:04:43 PM

It feels so good to have no signature at last.
wingedcatgirl it's her... the real winged cat girl... from Catgirl Heaven, presumably Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
it's her... the real winged cat girl...
Aug 24th 2019 at 7:12:00 AM

wrt fanon, "information that the fandom falsely believes to be canon" is, I'm fairly sure, not the definition of the term, but simply something that fanon is capable of causing.

Like — I know that Harry Potter canon doesn't contain wand holsters. But they exist in my fanfics, because I think it'd be dumb if they didn't. That's a fanon.

... Writing conventions are definitely a misuse, though. If it's not a fact about the world, it's not a fanon.

🐱 Name: Sylvi 🐱 Pronouns: it/they/she 🐱
Aug 24th 2019 at 8:21:08 AM

Well, I read the fanon description before making my post and I did admittedly only end up with one part of the description left in there after editing down my post (the part I missed was that people don't have to be confused between fanon and canon; the part I left in was that those that do, tend to be upset the show is being inconsistent when it debunks the 'facts' they didn't realise were fanon).

However, the trope description does say that the fanon is something that the fandom decides to run with as part of the canon, and therefore treat it as a fact of the canon setting. It's often used to fill in the gaps within the canon work.

The trope does make a distinction between head canon and fanon. The former is personal to individuals and the latter is widespread among the fandom. In both cases, it's applied to the original work to pad out the facts of the canon.

Regarding your wand holsters idea: depending on its scope, it might be fanon, but it might just be a writing convention for your stories.

  • If wand holsters are your idea alone, it's not fanon:
    • If you're solely applying the idea to your fanfic settings, it's not head canon either, it's a writing preference/convention you've decided to make for your storytelling purposes (in other words, you're effectively saying: Rowling should have thought of this, it should have been part of the setting; since I think it makes so much sense, I'm going to make it part of my version of the setting regardless).
    • If you apply it to Rowling's setting (as in, it doesn't matter if Rowling ever mentioned them, they have to exist because it's dumb for them not to), then you've got a head canon: you're applying it to both the original work and your fanfic settings.
  • If the wand holsters have been adopted by the fandom at large and applied to Rowling's setting, it's fanon.
    • If the fandom uses it as a widespread storytelling convention (lots of fanfic writers think it's a great idea so they all use it in their settings), but no-one believes it's part of Rowling's canon setting, it's not fanon, but it is a widespread writing convention used by the fandom.

It is entirely possible for fanon to come from a widespread fandom preference, however. I've seen that happen in the Real Ghostbusters fandom. Many years ago, there was a prolific fanfic writer within that fandom, who had created a what they felt made sense for the setting, and the stories they told were therefore consistent to the setting's rules and lore, even if the stories themselves weren't connected. Over time, they built up a lot of lore and even a timeline events based off the connected stories.

It was so popular that other fanfic writers referred to this bible as the setting in which to tell their own stories. This eventually reached such a scale that the original fanfic writer's vision of the setting took over and even replaced the canon in places. While fans were well aware of many of the derivative settings' deviations from, or differences from, the canon setting, some of the ideas became blurred, and eventually became established fanon of the canon show: even where the fanon may have contradicted canon, the canon was either dismissed or may even have been completely forgotten.

When I entered the fandom (also many years ago), people thought my ideas were weird — because I'd never heard of this fanfic writer and I had no idea how pervasive their vision of the setting had become. It had been so long since anyone had entered the fandom from outside that influence that the line between fanon and canon had been lost and even some of the canon had been forgotten.

I mention the Real Ghostbusters example because I don't want to come across as saying people write fanfiction in a certain way because the fanon came along first. Sometimes, someone comes up with an idea that snowballs in popularity and may even become more popular than certain canon ideas it might come into conflict with. In those cases, fanon comes to be applied to canon from non-official sources because it's gained so much traction. Also, I don't want to imply that's a bad thing: some of these ideas are fantastic and that's why they gain traction.

Total aside: I completely agree with your sentiment that wand holsters should have been a thing, and if anything should have the momentum to become fanon, I think that's one. As you indicate, it just makes sense for people to need some method of carrying wands in a way that keeps them safe and secure but still makes them easily and quickly accessible.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 24th 2019 at 5:12:36 PM

It feels so good to have no signature at last.
Pichu-kun ...
...
Sep 4th 2019 at 4:47:03 PM

Fix Fic is separated into General examples and Specific examples, but some Specific examples are in the General section.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands
Redmess
Sep 5th 2019 at 12:35:35 PM

Detrhoning Moment / The Spoony Experiment.

Why does this even exist? It just seems like a magnet for complaining and flamebait. I think this should be nuked, honestly.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 5th 2019 at 9:36:13 PM

emeriin Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Sep 5th 2019 at 12:36:53 PM

To be fair a lot of the Dethroning Moment pages are like that.

I cut up one dozen new men and you will die somewhat, again and again.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands
Redmess
Sep 5th 2019 at 12:40:40 PM

I find it a highly toxic trope to use in this way, honestly, especially when it gets used to target creators this directly.

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