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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#451: Jun 20th 2019 at 5:10:16 PM

I don't really think it makes it any harder to read, but shouldn't these kinds of changes at least be discussed with the people actively editing the page?

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#452: Jun 20th 2019 at 5:17:20 PM

[up] You seem to have some sense of ownership over the page. This Is A Wiki... which means other people can edit it, too. And it needs to meet the wiki's standards and follow the rules.

Edited by XFllo on Jun 20th 2019 at 2:18:17 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#453: Jun 20th 2019 at 5:19:48 PM

It's a wiki in the sense that there needs to be some degree of consensus. This wouldn't necessarily be an issue if it weren't the second time you've made large changes to the page without discussing them.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#454: Jun 20th 2019 at 5:37:26 PM

^ A) Gee, the edit was not large. B) The change was agreed in this thread. C) Everybody is allowed to edit the wiki as they see fit. Consensus is needed only if there is disagreement. D) Self-demonstrating writing is supposed to be only on that namespace. E) The stylistic choice is weird when the character talks about himself while the others on the page are described as usual. F) You don't own the page, even if you created or wrote majority of the content. G) Generally, it's not required to contact "active editors" of whatever page and ask them for permission to edit it, too.

Shall I continue?

Sorry if I somehow offended you. I only wanted to make the page better according to the rules of this wiki and this community.

If people agree that the self-demonstrating description is a good thing to have on the page, please do ask mods for a system revert.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#455: Jun 20th 2019 at 5:44:16 PM

I'm not taking ownership of the page. All I'm asking is that these kinds of broad, somewhat subjective changes at least be brought up on the Discussion of a given page before they get pushed through the same day. On any page, really. This is just a page I happen to follow where it's come up. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 20th 2019 at 6:48:44 AM

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#456: Jun 20th 2019 at 5:58:35 PM

All I'm asking is that these kinds of broad, somewhat subjective changes at least be brought up on the Discussion of a given page before they get pushed through the same day. On any page, really. This is just a page I happen to follow where it's come up. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

Well that is sort of unreasonable to ask. Again, it was not a huge edit. It was not subjective. Really, anything that smells of "this troper" can hardly ever stay on the wiki — it would be a huge exception.

Sometimes an editor would have to wait for months or years if they expected a response on a discussion page for a random character sheet. It's not required protocol for editing this wiki.

I appreciate that you take an interest in the page and try to fix its issues, but really you should not take my edits so personally.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#457: Jun 20th 2019 at 6:10:32 PM

But Self-Demonstrating articles have been around for years, and saying that section couldn't be Self-Demonstrating would be a broad change, and subjective in that it's... two tropers who've expressed a dislike of Self-Demonstrating folders. I can understand not liking them, I'm not even necessarily opposed to changing it, but it doesn't seem to be a rule and I do think the editors of a page should be consulted.

I'm not trying to make this personal. Sincerely. I don't take ownership of the page. I didn't write most of it — I didn't even edit it much until the past few months. I just think as a broader policy, if a page is actively, recently edited, if there's a problem and you're not sure how to fix it, just... talk to the people there? And if they don't respond or do anything about it, then go ahead.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 20th 2019 at 7:24:11 AM

RonnieArmitage Since: May, 2014
#458: Jun 20th 2019 at 7:14:11 PM

I'm going to agree with Unsung that I've seen it happen on many pages I edit: People who have no familiarity with the pages come along and wholesale change pages despite not knowing what is and isn't actually in the work, not understanding why the entries were made that way in the first place, and thus making no attempt to ensure changed entries are rewritten in a way properly consistent with both the work and the rest of the page.

And then they often just leave after making a total mess of the page, leaving the regular editors of the page and/or people familiar with the work now stuck with a whole ton of work they weren't expecting, may not actually have time in their lives to tackle at that particular moment, and often with no real idea what the drive-by editor was even thinking or why they did it.

No, nobody has ownership of a page, but my experience with editing wikis is that it's considered at best poor practice to make messy changes that will force other people to have to clean up after you. You should take the time to make sure your changes are already neat, tidy, accurate, and complete, and that means asking the regular editors for necessary information beforehand if you happen to not be familiar enough yourself with the work in question.

In this case, if we had been asked, we would have explained things like how the superheroes in the game were often deliberately designed as homages to various mainstream comic superheroes, or how Guise was created as an homage to Ambush Bug and Deadpool and so has the same fourth-wall breaking, character-shilling writing they do, which is why his entries were written the way theirs often are.

We're happy to help, we'd just like to get in on the necessary work before the work is started so it can get done properly, is all. It's easier to do the job right the first time than it is to clean up a messily-done job after the fact.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#459: Jun 20th 2019 at 7:36:49 PM

Thanks, I do appreciate the support. But I don't want this to come across as accusatory or anything. It's good to want to make the website better, that's what I think we all want. When I started editing the Sentinels pages a few months back, they did need work, and that work's still in progress. I'm just trying to get us to coordinate a little, so we're not working at cross-purposes or doubling up on labor.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 20th 2019 at 8:43:13 AM

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#460: Jun 20th 2019 at 9:01:53 PM

People who have no familiarity with the pages come along and wholesale change pages despite not knowing what is and isn't actually in the work, not understanding why the entries were made that way in the first place, and thus making no attempt to ensure changed entries are rewritten in a way properly consistent with both the work and the rest of the page.

It's also the editors responsibility to make edits according to our rules and make sure their examples have context, that they don't misuse tropes while claiming that the tropes are flexible, that they don't natter and so on.

And then they often just leave after making a total mess of the page, leaving the regular editors of the page and/or people familiar with the work now stuck with a whole ton of work they weren't expecting, may not actually have time in their lives to tackle at that particular moment, and often with no real idea what the drive-by editor was even thinking or why they did it.

I really don't appreciate the accusatory tone. I didn't leave the page messy, I began fixing it. Whoever started the self-demonstrating thing left the page messy. (If you let me complete the clean-up of the folder, it might look consistent by now.) We all are volunteers here, giving our precious time to this wiki.

No, nobody has ownership of a page, but my experience with editing wikis is that it's considered at best poor practice to make messy changes that will force other people to have to clean up after you. You should take the time to make sure your changes are already neat, tidy, accurate, and complete, and that means asking the regular editors for necessary information beforehand if you happen to not be familiar enough yourself with the work in question.

I am convinced my edits on that page were fine.

...and that means asking the regular editors for necessary information beforehand if you happen to not be familiar enough yourself with the work in question.

This is ridiculous.

In this case, if we had been asked, we would have explained things like how the superheroes in the game were often deliberately designed as homages to various mainstream comic superheroes, or how Guise was created as an homage to Ambush Bug and Deadpool and so has the same fourth-wall breaking, character-shilling writing they do, which is why his entries were written the way theirs often are.

You have no right to expect special treatment of being asked first. Anyone can edit the page. Also, Homage and Shout-Out differ from Expy and Composite Character. Are you sure you understand the difference?

It also looks like editors of the page in question failed to explain it. If you don't know it, our pages are for general readership and for people who might not be familiar with works. It is not exclusively for fans who are familiar with the work or the fandom.

We're happy to help, we'd just like to get in on the necessary work before the work is started so it can get done properly, is all. It's easier to do the job right the first time than it is to clean up a messily-done job after the fact.

Yes, you should help to make the page neater. Again, I insist that it's not my edits that were messy. The only thing that might look sloppy is that the clean-up was not finished and now it's one-third (or less) cleaned up, the rest still self-demonstrating.


If you want to preserve the description of Guise in the Self-Demonstrating tone, you should move it to a separate page as was suggested in this thread.

Self-Demonstrating things are funny and welcome to fans only. To others it's weird or annoying; not informative, not reader-friendly.

Edited by XFllo on Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:24:03 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#461: Jun 20th 2019 at 9:09:37 PM

Couldn't help but lurk and overhear the debate. I must say that I want to know what constitutes "messy edits" by users unfamiliar with a particular work? Because much problems are caused by fans of a work assuming the page will only be read by those equally into the work, leaving things like ZC Es and the like, and this line of reasoning can just as easily be used to paint people going on routine clean-ups as "leaving behind messes" because the regular page editors assumed the page was already fine.

Sometimes a pair of outside eyes is what's needed, and I genuinely don't know what sort of "messes" people apparently leave behind when cleaning up pages for works they aren't familiar with.

That's why I felt the need to jump in here; it's a very strange claim to make without evidence of what's being referred to.


Also, while I'm here, I'm gonna mention the Characters.Brutal Series pages as some pages that need massive clean-up help. Just...just look at them.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#462: Jun 20th 2019 at 9:18:50 PM

@X Fllo I get that you don't like Self-Demonstrating articles. You're within your rights not to like them. But it's not your call to make on your own. All I'm asking is that you bring other people into the discussion before making a significant change like that if you're not familiar with the work in question. I don't think that's unusual for a wiki.

Homage can be used in different ways, but at least on the TV Tropes page for Homage, it does actually link to Expy with the words 'where the homage is a specific character.' They're not always the same, but they're not unrelated.

[up]I wouldn't call X Fllo's changes to the Sentinels page messy by themselves, but all the examples of Expy and Composite Character were cut even when some of them were accurate. I just think that like the ZCE policy, it's easier to fix the problem if it's commented out rather than deleted.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 20th 2019 at 10:56:40 AM

RonnieArmitage Since: May, 2014
#463: Jun 20th 2019 at 10:05:41 PM

I must say that I want to know what constitutes "messy edits" by users unfamiliar with a particular work?
Editors wholesale deleting massive amounts of "wrong" entries instead of doing the IMHO correct thing of either rewriting them to be "correct" or tracking down the actual correct trope for the entry themselves, is the one I see most often.

In this case, XFllo went through and gutted massive amounts of entries, forcing Unsung to be the one to have to spend their time trying to rewrite entries to be more correct so they can be put back on the page, despite it being unclear what XFilo's problem was with the entries to begin with.

If they had instead gone to the discussion page and said something like, "Hey everyone, I feel that the Expy tropes on this page are possibly misused because (detailed explanation why). Can you tell me what people who know the game think makes the characters Expies so we can rewrite or replace the entries to fit better?" Then we would have been happy to explain and see what we could do to help before the changes were made.

Likewise, XFilo did an IMHO pretty clumsy job of rewriting the Guise entries they took issue with, versus, again, just going on the discussion page and saying "Hey, so we on the forums have been talking about there being issues with Self Demonstrating Article type entries and pages. Can you tell me why this Guise dude was written this way so we can rewrite their entries to fit Wiki policy better?"

I mean, that's the precise reason why discussion pages exist for Wiki pages: So that if you're going to be doing a major change to the page, you can discuss it with the page's regular editors beforehand to get an idea of the best way to do it. IMHO only if the page seems to be outright abandoned and has no regular editors should you just go ahead and unilaterally make massive changes to a page.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#464: Jun 20th 2019 at 10:16:03 PM

Okay, both of those explanations are fair. Just wanted to get some clarification. [tup]

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#465: Jun 21st 2019 at 12:50:12 AM

I do feel that both of you are claiming ownership of these pages, despite your protests to the contrary. And some of these points come across as complaining that this is a wiki where others can edit "your" work.

Also, I fully agree that Self Demonstrating should NOT be used for character pages, because it is confusing and uninformative for people unfamiliar with the work. Work pages are not just for the amusement of fans of that work, they need to be informative to everyone.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#466: Jun 21st 2019 at 6:06:40 AM

These are the same rules and basic courtesies I'd expect to apply anywhere else on the site. Valid examples were removed, and even the entries that needed work still contained accurate information. Commenting them out just makes the job of fixing them a lot easier than if they're deleted outright.

As for the self-demonstrating issue, I think that needs to be discussed on the Discussion page for each article, case by case. If someone's willing to clean them up in either direction, remaining self-demonstrating or not, that's fine, but I do think there should be at least an attempt at involving the community on this one.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#467: Jun 21st 2019 at 6:12:29 AM

The thing is, I don't think discussion pages are used all that often at this stage in the wiki's life

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#468: Jun 21st 2019 at 6:14:42 AM

If you misuse tropes like you did for Expies, with lack of explanation or with context that points to misuse, editors are supposed to remove it. Now most of those entries of Expy that I deleted for being ZCE or misuse were moved to Composite Characters with almost the same context — what does that tell you? That I was wrong to remove the entries? If that was wrong, I suppose they would be put back in the exact same way, no?

If I my re-writing of the entries is clumsy or messy, then what was it before?

Examples of some changes on the page Characters.Sentinels Of The Multiverse Heroes:

From this:

  • Achilles' Heel: Psst. Don't tell the bad guys, but my deck kinda falls apart if I can't get a good card churn or something stops me from playing; all my Ongoings explode after a turn, and they're most of what keeps me operating, so I need to keep replacing them when they get taken out!

To this:

  • Achilles' Heel: His deck falls apart if he can't get a good card churn or something stops him from playing; all his Ongoings explode after a turn, and they're most of what keeps him operating, so he needs to keep replacing them when they get taken out.


From this:
  • Armor Piercing: When I'm X-Treeeeeme any damage I do is Irreducible, and can't be redirected as a fringe benefit!
To this:
  • Armor Piercing: When he's X-Treeeeeme, any damage he does is irreducible, and can't be redirected as a fringe benefit!

I mostly left what context was in the original write-up and changed it to the third person. The second one I feel I should have commented out, because it's basically a ZCE and doesn't explain how it is an Armor-Piercing Attack.


Yeah, I don't like Self-Demonstrating entries, but I'm hardly the only one. If it's one paragraph of self-demonstrating stuff on trope description, it's funny and even helpful to make people understand the trope.

This description would be fine on Self-Demonstrating.Guise subpage. But lumped together with other entries, it looks pretty bad, no matter how you spin it.


And you know what, I no longer care for this page. Please ask for a mod revert to change to back to that self-demonstrating first person writing, even though I still think it's atrocious (and I am still convinced it's against the rules).

If a mod revert is declined (probably likely as there were some subsequent edits), it will be not that hard for you to revert it manually — I changed like 5 entries at the beginning of the folder and commented out about 3 examples with insufficient context (one of them mostly for bad example indentation). You can copy the original entries from the history of the page — it's fairly easy. So please stop complaining that I stole your precious time from your life for editing, it can be reverted in 5 minutes or less.

You have there some natter and incorrect example indentation on your page. I suggest you deal with that, too, because I'm tempted to start removing it but I'm really afraid to touch your page (although it really is not yours) — if all this outrage you feel was caused by my editing of one paragraph of description and about 8 examples of tropes, I don't know what would follow.


You two keep claiming I should have asked first. I say — it was not necessary for my edits, but I did bring it up in this thread before the edit. Again, I did not wait for much longer because usually you don't get that much feedback in clean-up threads. I probably should have, but clean-ups are not something that requires consensus like renaming tropes or choosing page pictures.
@Redmess

I do feel that both of you are claiming ownership of these pages, despite your protests to the contrary. And some of these points come across as complaining that this is a wiki where others can edit "your" work.

Also, I fully agree that Self Demonstrating should NOT be used for character pages, because it is confusing and uninformative for people unfamiliar with the work. Work pages are not just for the amusement of fans of that work, they need to be informative to everyone.

Thanks for backing me up here, I appreciate it. I was afraid I might be imagining things.

Edited by XFllo on Jun 21st 2019 at 6:13:19 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#469: Jun 21st 2019 at 6:26:26 AM

I don't feel like I've said or done anything to come across as outraged as you're making me out to be.

I'm just asking you to collaborate a little, and talk to people before making major decisions, meet them halfway. Not many people read this thread either, but a Discussion page is at least targeted at the people who contribute to that page. If you get no response there after a day or two on a given page, go ahead. I think it's a pretty small request. Likewise commenting out entries rather than deleting them — at least give people the chance to fix them. If there really is no rule against deleting entries containing valid information, I think maybe there should be.

At any rate. I'll revert the changes when I get a chance.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 21st 2019 at 7:30:29 AM

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#470: Jun 21st 2019 at 6:53:31 AM

[up] See? There's the ownership sense again. You will revert the changes even though now that would be fifty fifty (two people say self-demonstrating first person is bad on that particular page, you two claiming it's... whatevs you think it is, stylistically interesting or what).

Deleting entries with "valid information" still should be deleted if the trope is misused.

If you want to move the text to other tropes (that would be applied well), you can still access the content in the page history. You are making this sound like I vandalized the article. Which I did not.

Edited by XFllo on Jun 21st 2019 at 3:54:39 PM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#471: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:07:36 AM

Make that three people. I agree that self-demonstrating content has no place outside the namespace.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#472: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:25:29 AM

Confirming: self-demonstrating content should be limited to the Self-Demonstrating namespace. All other articles should be written in our normal style.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#473: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:13:49 AM

Great, that's all I was asking. Thank you.

And Xfllo, you said you weren't going to do it. That's all. It's not a sense of ownership of one page, it's about how that way of doing things affects the website overall. This is all a lot of trouble that could be avoided if you asked the question to start with. I never said you vandalized the page and the point is not to make you feel like you're being put on trial or anything, but you did remove valid examples on the first occasion, and you didn't know for sure about the self-demonstrating articles either. That's why I think we need to give these things some time and bring more people into the conversation — in general, not on any one page.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 21st 2019 at 9:20:13 AM

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#474: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:30:59 AM

[up] Stop targeting me, pretty please. I'm done with that page. Do as you want, fix the page as you want, but do follow the rules of this wiki.

I was pretty sure about the self-demonstrating thing, because all examples on this Guise character looked like This Troper — which is one of the worst things that tropers did (and some still do), writing about themselves.

Move the content to SelfDemonstrating.Guise and put it on this index: SelfDemonstrating.Character Pages if it's so precious to you.

Again, what I removed from the page — misuse/dubious examples of Expy — were valid removals. You yourself changed most entries that were Expies to Composite Character. I did bring it up in discussions. Should I have waited longer for response? Possibly, but I have stated, repeatedly, that those clean-up threads are usually slow and I was beyond happy I got one response. Usually no one is volunteering to do the clean-up, so I wanted to do it right away (I could forget about the page having issues had I waited for a week or so). Namely I made a post in the Expy clean-up thread, which lists the rules. And I copied the rules to the discussion page of that character sheet.

Honestly I don't know why you keep pursuing the issue.

I'm done with that page personally, but let me repeat — that page is not kosher as of now re: the self-domonstrating tone in one folder (possibly more, I haven't read the whole page), ZCE (not that many, but some) and example indentation/natter. I suspect the Composite Character entries might be misused as well (I believe that trope it's supposed to be for adaptations, not homages and shout-outs).

Edited by XFllo on Jun 21st 2019 at 5:32:06 PM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#475: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:38:37 AM

And again, no one is obligated to ask anyone for permission to edit a page on the wiki. That is simply how the wiki works: everyone is free to edit in principle. If you feel there is a problem, you can always go to the mods, but you can't demand people to go through you or your group, because, again, neither you nor your group of fans own the page, and thus, they do NOT need your permission, approval, or involvement to work on a page.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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