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IJBM and WMG to be replaced by the forum's Media theads?

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Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#76: Mar 24th 2011 at 5:09:06 PM

We already pretty much ruled out the option of using the forums as they are, but there's definitely a better way to do it than the one we have now.

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#77: Mar 24th 2011 at 5:25:06 PM

I respectfully disagree. If you're worried about natter spreading to the mainspace, there is the new natter-fy button to let people know about it. If that's not the problem, then I still don't understand what the problem is.

DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#78: Mar 24th 2011 at 5:54:30 PM

I think the biggest problem is that they become a total mess.

They need a way to make moderating them easier.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#79: Mar 24th 2011 at 6:02:36 PM

Folderizing works. That's what happens on the Glee JBM, and it's perfectly readable.

Folderize according to character, or episode.

edited 24th Mar '11 6:02:55 PM by BadWolf21

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#80: Mar 24th 2011 at 6:21:17 PM

I really wish we could dispense with the Grandfather Clause mentality once and for all. If you're alienated by change Tv Tropes probably wasn't your best choice for a hobby.

And I really wish that people would stop trotting out the Grandfather Clause argument whenever someone raises objections to major changes. Especially when there isn't evidence presented to justify that those changes are, in fact, necessary.

The reason I raise the objection, though, is that I've seen several people in this thread implicate that the current JBM and WMG pages are causing problems, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of posts demonstrating that these problems are occurring due to the current format, and that they're occurring on a large enough scale that the current system is un-fixable.

This doesn't mean that I'm totally opposed to a change. In fact, setting them up in an Ask The Tropers style format is an interesting idea if it could be feasibly implemented in a way that wouldn't lose much of the current IJBM and WMG functionality. I don't really have a personal stake in this, as I don't edit these articles outside of splitting them in the Big Page Lock effort. I just want to ensure that the change is necessary, that there is as little as possible loss of current functionality, and that the change is implemented in a way that we don't alienate a large number of current editors.

edited 24th Mar '11 6:28:14 PM by Meeble

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Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#81: Mar 25th 2011 at 10:28:15 AM

Let's get a few things clear. Obviously we can't provide conclusive prove that the natter from JBM and WMG is leaking into the main wiki, short of spying on editors Big Brother style. I'm not saying that liking JBM and WMG automatically makes you any less of a useful contributor either. And as much as I dislike the whole concept, I understand that it has its purpose.

But the unique nature of these namespaces makes the standard wiki format ineffective, which is why I think an alternative system may be more suitable. Is it 100% necessary? Probably not. This isn't as bad as the old IJBM forum or the Fetish Fuel namespace or the controversial Troper Tales. But, consider this - we're not planning on losing any content here. If you read my personal suggestion again, the idea is to organise things better and add more features for people who like to post there, not to ruin their fun.

I'm not pushing this because I want to drive the JBM and WMG editors off. I honestly find it hard to believe anyone who is seriously invested in Tv Tropes would leave because of a format change for a section that was never even the site's main draw, especially with everything else that's getting overhauled lately. Am I wrong?

edited 25th Mar '11 10:28:57 AM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#82: Mar 25th 2011 at 10:36:49 AM

"But the unique nature of these namespaces makes the standard wiki format ineffective"

You have not provided enough evidence to convince us of that. The current format is easy to use, and (with maintenance) clean to look at. Especially with folders. I just don't see the reason it needs to be changed.

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#83: Mar 25th 2011 at 12:08:44 PM

The Ask The Tropers layout is specifically designed for conversations, whereas the wiki layout is not. It gives posts names and dates, separates topics and folderises replies automatically, and it lets you sort topics by category and keywords (and by most recent reply if you can burrow that feature from YKTTW).

As for using the wiki folders, you can technically do that (I think there are issues with how much text they can hold and how many folders you can have on the page before they start breaking though), but I highly doubt you will find enough volunteers to go through each of the thousands of pages to do that, especially when there's a much easier solution available.

edited 25th Mar '11 12:10:38 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#84: Mar 25th 2011 at 1:07:17 PM

Moving all of the information we have now to ATT style pages is less work than having people who frequent the pages organize and folderize the pages as they are now? Really?

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#85: Mar 25th 2011 at 1:41:46 PM

[up] We could just store the old stuff in an archive.

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#86: Mar 25th 2011 at 1:46:22 PM

[up][up]Now when did I say that? We'll do the same thing as with the discussion pages - the old stuff stays as a locked archive page (possibly with the option to be relapsed by a proper FAQ-like page if someone is inclined to make one and with some kind of approval process natch) and the only time you have to copy anything is if you want to continue the same discussion in the new system, which you'll agree is still less work than folderising.

edited 25th Mar '11 1:48:47 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#87: Mar 25th 2011 at 1:49:20 PM

I still don't see how that's easier.

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#88: Mar 25th 2011 at 1:54:53 PM

It'd be automatic, wouldn't delete anything, and wouldn't require people to folderize everything.

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#89: Mar 25th 2011 at 2:25:16 PM

Hypothetical instructions for resuming a discussion from the old system in the new one:

1) Open the new JBM page and click the "archived discussion" button.

2) Scroll down until you find the topic you want to continue discussing (it's easier if your mouse has a wheel) and mark all the text next to the top bullet point with your mouse cursor (it's very important that you hold the left mouse button all the way through).

3) Right click your mouse and select the option in the drop-down menu that says "copy".

4) Left click your web browser's "Back" button to return to the new JBM page and click the "add a new topic" button.

5) Right click your mouse over the newly appeared edit box and select the option in the drop-down menu that says "paste". Left click the "safe" button.

And you're done. Now if you want to respond to the old post, you'll also need to click the "reply" button under the topic you just created and write your response in the edit box. You'll actually have to use your keyboard here, so you're on your own.

edited 25th Mar '11 2:27:22 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#90: Mar 25th 2011 at 3:51:00 PM

Archived discussions don't allow for copying the source code. Additionally, people are relatively unlikely to check if the conversation is hidden away, and it'd be rather difficult to set it up so that the old entries could be easily continued.

Not to mention that ask the tropers gets rid of old stuff, which kind of defeats the point

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#91: Mar 25th 2011 at 4:15:04 PM

Archived discussions don't allow for copying the source code.

Getting the exact text is quite unnecessary.

Additionally, people are relatively unlikely to check if the conversation is hidden away,

Not if we add a big arrow or banner or something at the top pointing at the "archived discussion" button telling the reader to check there.

and it'd be rather difficult to set it up so that the old entries could be easily continued.

"In response to the discussion about plot point ABC from the archive: That's a good point, but Bob wouldn't have known that Alice would betray him because XYZ."

Not to mention that ask the tropers gets rid of old stuff, which kind of defeats the point

How's that a bad thing? The guy got his/her answer - JBM's like Lost And Found for plot points. Even if we must keep everything, we could still set up a second archiving system or something if the page gets too large.

edited 25th Mar '11 4:16:13 PM by SpellBlade

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#92: Mar 25th 2011 at 4:18:23 PM

All right, nitpicks, I like that, it means people are actually considering this.

First and most obvious, we'll make it keep old entries when we adapt it for just bugs me and wild mass guess, that's just a matter of deleting a few lines of code. I don't know what character limit the Ask The Tropers system has, but if it's anything like the wiki pages most of them will never need to be split. And though I don't see a particular reason you'd need to copy the source code, that too is a trivial matter to solve if we seriously decide to do this.

People who are familiar with discussion pages should already know what "archived discussion" means, even though it sounds self-explanatory to me. Failing that, we'll make a headline, keep a countdown thread opened in Special Efforts for a week, make an administrivia page explaining the new system even link a big honking banner on top of every just bugs me page like YMMV pages have.

My point is, we won't be doing this in the dark or anything. There will be an adjustment period, of course, but this will be beneficial in the long run.

edited 25th Mar '11 4:24:54 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#93: Mar 25th 2011 at 4:39:14 PM

Quite a number of WMG and JBM pages have required splitting under the Big Page Lock Special Project. Any article with more than 500,000 characters can potentially cause server issues.

Whatever system we use would need a method that a non-mod can split and organize the pages.

edited 25th Mar '11 4:40:49 PM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#94: Mar 25th 2011 at 4:42:44 PM

How's that a bad thing? The guy got his/her answer - JBM's like Lost And Found for plot points.

Even if IJBM is*

, WMG is not

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#95: Mar 25th 2011 at 4:59:57 PM

Then how about we do some kind of self-updating archive? Say when the page reaches 400 000 characters the oldest entry gets taken off the active page and goes into permanent storage, though I don't think it will happen all that often. If you want to save space you can even have some kind of flagging feature so that a page curator can decide whether a topic that's approaching "the bottom" is worth keeping or should be allowed to disappear into the ether. Another way to reduce the size of the just bugs me pages would be to have all Fridge Logic questions go in idea like they should, and as for wild mass guess, well I'd say ban all the Haruhi-is-a-Time-Lord type guesses, we have enough of those as it is.

edited 25th Mar '11 5:02:37 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#96: Mar 25th 2011 at 5:20:16 PM

Not if we add a big arrow or banner or something at the top pointing at the "archived discussion" button telling the reader to check there.

People will still be less inclined to click on it than if it wasn't hidden in the first place. Specially if there is a non-archived discussion going on.

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#97: Mar 25th 2011 at 5:28:36 PM

[up] To be fair, though, current large JBM and WMG pages have the same problem. Mass Effect 2 has something in the order of 900,000 characters worth of archived entries.

So that's not something that would be unique to a new system if it were implemented.

edited 25th Mar '11 5:30:37 PM by Meeble

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#98: Mar 25th 2011 at 5:33:34 PM

Sure. But now is just for overly large IJBM. If by changing the system we archive all old IJBM pages, then all pages currently with a IJBM page will have this problem. Right now, relatively few pages have archives (and by experience, many of those are pure bitching and should be axed, anyway).

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#99: Mar 25th 2011 at 5:56:28 PM

I think that if people feel like discussing something, they will, whether it exists in the archives or not. Maybe it's better we take Bailey's advice and only keep a permanent record of entries that provide some clear answer to the question being asked or theories that have been Jossed / Confirmed. Of course, that would require people willing to dig through the whole mess to find the snippets of useful information.

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#100: Mar 25th 2011 at 6:05:04 PM

Of course, that would require people willing to dig through the whole mess to find the snippets of useful information.

It's doable, though, as that was pretty much SOP for splitting the WMG pages (separating the Confirmed/Jossed theories from the rest, I mean.) See One Piece as an example.

edited 25th Mar '11 6:06:04 PM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

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