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Hello, fellow writers! Got any question that you can't find answer from Google or Wikipedia, but you don't think it needs a separate thread for? You came to the right place!

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Now, bring on the questions, baby!

edited 11th Apr '18 6:31:51 PM by dRoy

ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#19226: Apr 22nd 2021 at 4:33:29 AM

I hope I don't insult anyone asking this but how important are the the Bechdel Test and LGBTQA+ representation to your media? What should I do being aware of these groups without alienating my audience or coming of as offensive?

Merseyuser1 Since: Sep, 2011
#19227: Apr 22nd 2021 at 4:45:42 AM

I've been trying to work out how to write Time Travel in a setting that's currently just a sandbox for now, and make it consistent.

So far I've got my characters travelling back in time to relive a Christmas they couldn't enjoy as they were only 17 in 2002, and go to a big event - that in December 2002 was covered in the media. They want to Time Travel for nostalgia reasons.

These are the three main characters:

  • Victoria (Tori, Vix), a 36-year-old businesswoman and events manager, in this timeline, she's become wealthy through this, despite being wealthy is no Corrupt Corporate Executive.

  • Allison (Allie), a 34-year-old Canadian who's still a party girl, 10 years on, and somehow doesn't tire of being one, has a job as a nightclub dancer.

It's Lighter and Softer in tone, more focused on Character Development than any major villain and the biggest conflict... adjusting to 2002 society having travelled back from 2020.

I guess you could call it a Period Piece.

Swordofknowledge Spreading literacy with book and blade from I like it here... Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Spreading literacy with book and blade
#19228: Apr 22nd 2021 at 4:54:57 AM

[up] x2 @ Chico The Parakeet:

I think that's a good question and everyone will have their own answers, born from their outlook on the world and their writing. My personal viewpoint is as follows:

I write based on what interests me, what plots/scenarios/characters I find fascinating and worthy of exploration and expansion. I don't try to be offensive or make caricatures of any groups of people unless the plot really calls for it, but that's where I draw the line. If someone finds my work offensive in nature or somehow insensitive towards certain groups of people or concepts, then that is a personal problem for them to deal with, not me to amend or cater to. Either they will decide that my story is interesting enough that to swallow their offense and continue consuming it or they will move on. I don't begrudge them that, it's their right after all.

But I've been in a situation where I agonized over the offense stories could potentially cause and I came out of that swearing to never again put an inordinate amount of effort towards thinking about it, besides the bare minimum. Shackling your work to the sensibilities of others is to restrict your mind and what it can create. Now, I will personally warn someone if I'm having a conversation about our mutual writing that there may be things they will perhaps find upsetting, but apart from that, no I write as I will and as I want.

Edited by Swordofknowledge on Apr 22nd 2021 at 7:58:05 AM

Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
Swordofknowledge Spreading literacy with book and blade from I like it here... Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Spreading literacy with book and blade
#19229: Apr 22nd 2021 at 4:57:16 AM

[up] @ Merseyuser:

Well Time Travel is a large concept. How exactly does it work in your setting? Are the characters trying to change or avoid changing certain events altogether? If adjusting to society is the problem, you could have the characters study history and try to take a self-made class on events back in those times to avoid sticking out or at least seeming weird to others in that time period.

Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#19230: Apr 22nd 2021 at 5:01:20 AM

... how important are the the Bechdel Test and LGBTQA+ representation to your media?

I fear that I'm only in a good position to speak to the former (having limited education in the matter of what's best in the application of representation).

So, addressing that former, I believe that the Bechdel Test conveys an issue in aggregate: By providing an easy-to-pass test, it reveals just how few works manage to pass even that.

However, a single work passing or failing isn't actually significant. For example, a story focussed on a single heterosexual romance might well fail—but that doesn't mean that such stories are invalid.

Rather, what is significant is the frequency with which works pass or fail.

So, for your own work, I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you discover that your works fail significantly more often than not.

My Games and Asset Packs
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#19231: Apr 22nd 2021 at 12:21:53 PM

I also can't really speak about LGBTQ+ relationships much; though I have plenty of characters who fall under the rainbow spectrum, I myself am straight and cis- an ally, but I don't have enough experience to really talk about representation. I just handle it by making the sexualities or gender identities incidental and not too much of a "big deal". My characters will be gay, but I don't dwell on it much, and since my stories tend not to touch on issues of homophobia or transphobia too much anyway...it's not a big deal in-universe either.

As for the Bechdel Test, I actually think about it quite a bit. As a girl, I do try and give my girls something more to talk about than the boys, however it's hard to not have them talk about their boyfriends from time to time. I feel that allowing them to gossip about the boys in their life is more realistic than never letting it happen. The key is that they also talk about other things going on in their life as well. They have goals and problems and hobbies that aren't related to the boys. I generally care more about making them seem like real people before I worry about whether or not I'm writing "good female characters". Or, to put it another way, I don't think about the fact that I'm writing a girl character talking to another girl character; they're just characters talking about whatever's on their mind, and sometimes it's two girls who want to talk about their boyfriends, because they're just joking around and making fun of their boyfriends while they're on the phone. The issue is, when I think about the test, I get too concerned over those few scenes and I forget about the rest of it, because when you think too hard about it you notice it more, even if the work does pass and passes more than it fails.

I guess you can say my general stance is... make the characters people before anything else. If you're too concerned over their sexuality and their gender, it'll show. Treat the gay characters like you'd treat your straight characters. Treat your girls like you'd treat your boys, and treat your enbies the same too. Obviously my approach of not making these things a "big deal" won't work in every case, and sometimes it's more realistic to have the gay characters go through struggles the straight characters won't, but first and foremost, you need to see your characters as people before you see them as representation and worry about every modicum of their portrayal.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Merseyuser1 Since: Sep, 2011
#19232: Apr 22nd 2021 at 1:48:10 PM

[up][up] @ Tropers/Swordofknowledge:

How Time Travel works in my setting is the main problem, I've not yet decided fully.

I know their main aim for going - to enjoy a pre-Christmas festival they couldn't enjoy due to their ages at the time and was hyped in the local media, rather than any grand Set Right What Once Went Wrong etc.

In general, they'd fit in, but there's also two new characters added:

  • Ava, a 37-year-old with a double-barrelled name (Italian-Canadian and Japanese-Canadian surname), half-Italian-Canadian, half-Japanese-Canadian, and Ambiguously Brown. Ava's personality is she's generally sensible, kind, but is also the Gay Best Friend of the group; she has Post-Stress Overeating as a major character flaw. Ava is a Girly Girl who doesn't like being defined by her sexuality; she's the geek of the group, but has better social skills than some who have No Social Skills.

  • Jenny, Ava's girlfriend, who's a less-developed character, but not a Flat Character, she's with the group and is also Girly Girl like Ava. She's been with Ava since 2007.


One problem is how to get Ava and Jenny to fit into 2002 society, but without their sexuality being the main issue in the story.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#19233: Apr 22nd 2021 at 2:22:56 PM

As a girl, I do try and give my girls something more to talk about than the boys, however it's hard to not have them talk about their boyfriends from time to time.

Let me note here, if I may, that the Bechdel Test is passed only by having one conversation between two or more women that does not centre around men.

Thus, as long as there is one such conversation, the work passes—regardless of whether there are other conversations in which women do talk about men.

My Games and Asset Packs
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#19234: Apr 22nd 2021 at 2:46:01 PM

Right. I'm aware that as long as I have a single conversation, I pass. Like I said at the bottom, when I really over-think it though, all I can really remember are the times when they do talk about the boys. And ideally, one single scene isn't good enough- it's a technical pass, but I'm not aiming for a C- :P

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit (Living Relic)
#19235: Apr 22nd 2021 at 3:26:08 PM

In that case, a better measure would be whether your female characters have characterization and goals that exist independently of their relationships with their significant others, but that's harder for a simple litmus test to check for.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#19236: Apr 22nd 2021 at 3:43:28 PM

Exactly; that's basically my advice, but a lot more concisely. [lol]

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit (Living Relic)
#19237: Apr 22nd 2021 at 4:38:49 PM

Whenever someone brings up the Bechdel Test, in addition to the fact that it's supposed to be applied to an aggregate of works rather than being a measure of feminism or gender equality or whatever for judging any particular work, I also enjoy pointing out that literally any work could pass the test by having a random, completely plot-irrelevant scene where two unidentified women talk about shoes or handbags or something else stereotypical and then never show up again.

Edited by CrystalGlacia on Apr 22nd 2021 at 7:39:25 AM

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#19238: Apr 23rd 2021 at 1:01:21 AM

I also enjoy pointing out that literally any work could pass the test by having a random, completely plot-irrelevant scene where two unidentified women talk about shoes or handbags or something else stereotypical and then never show up again.

Now see, that makes me wonder if the wealthy cisgendered heterosexual old white men who make up most studio execs would want it cut for being "useless".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#19239: Apr 23rd 2021 at 1:19:27 AM

Probably. Heck, as a girl I'd probably say to cut it as well! Assuming it doesn't impact the plot, that is.

In general, I think we're all on the same page here: Having the female characters be fleshed out individuals with plots and motivations that don't just boil down to obsessing over the male characters is a lot more important than stressing over the Bechdel Test. If your gals are written as characters first and girls second, then you'd probably pass the test without even trying. And I personally have to learn to not be so hard on myself for having several scenes of the girls talking about the guys- because I know that I also have scenes where they don't just talk about the guys, and I know that they're more than just boy-obsessed stereotypes.

The takeaway? Just make your characters people first and foremost, and the rest will fall into place.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 23rd 2021 at 4:21:59 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Swordofknowledge Spreading literacy with book and blade from I like it here... Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Spreading literacy with book and blade
#19240: Apr 23rd 2021 at 6:05:29 AM

TLDR: What can I have a father say to his son that truly hurts him and does long-term damage to their relationship, as a response to him arguing with his mother while she is in labor? If giving the ages helps for some: The father is 45, the mother is 46 and the son (the main character) is 16 at the time.

Detailed Explanation: Prior to the events in the story, my main character's mother goes into labor with his sister, and his parents and aunt (mother's younger sister/cousin) are slowly getting ready to go to the hospital while she is in increasing amounts of pain.

The main character and his mother get into an argument with one another that rapidly escalates due to the tenseness of the situation and his general attitude towards the whole thing. His father comes across the two of them arguing at the worst possible moment and verbally lashes out at him, which instantly brings the entire thing to an end but has the lasting effect of causing distance and resentment in a formerly close father/son relationship. This has effects that last into Part 1 of the story.

My question is...what exactly can I have the father say that isn't openly abusive but still "gets the job done"? Abusive in this cause being "I wish you were never born" or something like that.

Edited by Swordofknowledge on Apr 23rd 2021 at 9:11:01 AM

Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#19241: Apr 23rd 2021 at 7:20:41 AM

Two questions.

1. I'm a bit surprised that your main character decides to argue while his mother is in labor. That is a major case of Skewed Priorities. What are they arguing about? If it's an insignificant thing, people are going to see the protagonist as a jerk because a good person does not argue with pregnant women, especially when they are one's mother, over insignificant things. Are you trying to show that he's hotheaded or doesn't know when to back down?

2. Is your main character The Resenter in some way? Does the father have a terminal case of not being able to apologize? If not I really don't see one thing that his father says in a very stressful situation being able to absolutely ruin a formerly close relationship. As for exact wording, maybe "get your head on straight" or something.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Swordofknowledge Spreading literacy with book and blade from I like it here... Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Spreading literacy with book and blade
#19242: Apr 23rd 2021 at 7:39:42 AM

[up] @ Altris:

What are they arguing about? If it's an insignificant thing, people are going to see the protagonist as a jerk because a good person does not argue with pregnant women, especially when they are one's mother, over insignificant things. Are you trying to show that he's hotheaded or doesn't know when to back down?

I suppose like many things it's subjective as to whether their argument is petty or not. To answer the question, the catalysts of the argument was him not performing his part of getting his sister's nursery ready, and leaving the room a mess and actual tripping hazard in one place. But it's really an explosive culmination of his poor attitude and resentment for having to deal with a new sibling after his whole life of being an only child and the things that are being stripped from him as a result (driving lessons are now indefinitely on hold since money is tighter due to his mother retiring/quitting her job early to be a stay-at-home-mother for his sister).

Yes he is very hotheaded and stubborn (if you recall from an earlier question, this is the same boy who confronted a suspected drug-dealer alone to demand that she leave his friend alone). Both the protagonist and his mother have that hot-headed, stubborn streak and they just tend to push each other's buttons. Combine that with being in labor and everything else I mentioned and you have a train wreck.

Is your main character The Resenter in some way? Does the father have a terminal case of not being able to apologize?

I...don't think so? I had to look The Resenter trope up and it doesn't really fit him. The situation is more like this: the main character and father have a very close relationship. Whatever the father says is extremely harsh and foreign to the way he's spoken to his son before and it rattles him.

The relationship with his father isn't ruined, it is just more distant and still filled with irritation. It hasn't been long since they've had this falling out and the stress and new resentment from his new sister's impact on his life and his parents' seeming to not care hasn't mended things.

Edited by Swordofknowledge on Apr 23rd 2021 at 10:44:41 AM

Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#19243: Apr 23rd 2021 at 7:44:25 AM

I'm not sure how a close relationship can be thrown away in a simple sentence, but given the setting, maybe the father could simply say something that boils down to "we messed up with you, I hope we get things right with your sister" or another comparison to the same effect implying he was the "flawed prototype". In his heightened state of jealousy this would certainly make the protagonist view his parents in a very different light. However, I don't quite see how the father could refuse to take it back afterwards once he has cooled down, unless this would be something he could have believed to some extent.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Swordofknowledge Spreading literacy with book and blade from I like it here... Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Spreading literacy with book and blade
#19244: Apr 23rd 2021 at 7:52:37 AM

[up]@ C105: Wow that definitely is one that would sting! Especially in the situation he's in at the beginning, so good one. Also sorry this response is so long.

I think I may have messed up in my original question when I was trying to explain the impact of the argument. It doesn't ruin their relationship as much as it temporarily (although it persists for some time) causes them to greatly distance themselves from each other. My main character is understandably hurt, angry, but also in shock that his father would speak to him like that (I'll elaborate on that in a moment). It also combines with the fact that his new sister's arrival is causing upheaval in his life and his parents don't seem to care as much as he thinks they should.

On his father's part he is pretty shaken that he spoke to his own son like that, but also is angry at his behavior that led to the words in the first place. He is normally the type to apologize for his actions but he's so conflicted himself and dealing with being a new father again at an age he never expected, that he just puts it off again and again.

This leads to a distance between father and son that has my protagonist go it alone rather than confide in his father about things he's going through.

Now...as to why the main character was so shocked by his father's words. It isn't just the words themselves but the "tone" and "context" he said them in. They're a family unit of course but in the moment he spoke to his son to crush the argument between him and his mother, there was very much a Don't speak disrespectfully like that to the woman I love! vibe he gave off. A protective anger on behalf of his wife that made his son feel separated from his parents in a way he'd never experienced before, and it cut deeply. It isn't something he is able to articulate at the time, but he comes to realize it after he's matured a great deal sometime later.

Edited by Swordofknowledge on Apr 23rd 2021 at 10:54:27 AM

Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#19245: Apr 23rd 2021 at 8:03:43 AM

To answer the question, the catalysts of the argument was him not performing his part of getting his sister's nursery ready, and leaving the room a mess and actual tripping hazard in one place. But it's really an explosive culmination of his poor attitude and resentment for having to deal with a new sibling after his whole life of being an only child and the things that are being stripped from him as a result (driving lessons are now indefinitely on hold since money is tighter due to his mother retiring/quitting her job early to be a stay-at-home-mother for his sister).

Well, first off, him not doing his job in preparing the nursery is on him. Second, he's had a long time to raise concerns about this - assuming his mother only started showing physical signs of a pregnancy 16 weeks in and didn't get an ultrasound before then, there are still five whole months left in the pregnancy where this could have been discussed. Him choosing to kick up a fuss at the last possible minute and when his mother is in labor is horrendously stupid of him at best and definitely would make him unsympathetic.

I think I may have messed up in my original question when I was trying to explain the impact of the argument. It doesn't ruin their relationship as much as it temporarily (although it persists for some time) causes them to greatly distance themselves from each other. My main character is understandably hurt, angry, but also in shock that his father would speak to him like that (I'll elaborate on that in a moment). It also combines with the fact that his new sister's arrival is causing upheaval in his life and his parents don't seem to care as much as he thinks they should. On his father's part he is pretty shaken that he spoke to his own son like that, but also is angry at his behavior that led to the words in the first place. He is normally the type to apologize for his actions but he's so conflicted himself and dealing with being a new father again at an age he never expected, that he just puts it off again and again.

I mean... I dunno how to help you with this one, honestly. You seem pretty set on it and I'm not sure how I can convince you that it sounds very contrived. I'm assuming that the last part of the main character "going it alone" and not confiding in his father is just the result of all this and the thing that will further drive the story, and that seems to be the result you've set in stone. I don't know if you want to actually change the events leading up to it, because that would change the result.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Swordofknowledge Spreading literacy with book and blade from I like it here... Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Spreading literacy with book and blade
#19246: Apr 23rd 2021 at 8:15:18 AM

[up] @ Altris:

Well, first off, him not doing his job in preparing the nursery is on him. Second, he's had a long time to raise concerns about this - assuming his mother only started showing physical signs of a pregnancy 16 weeks in and didn't get an ultrasound before then, there are still five whole months left in the pregnancy where this could have been discussed. Him choosing to kick up a fuss at the last possible minute and when his mother is in labor is horrendously stupid of him at best and definitely would make him unsympathetic.

Oh it definitely is on him, and it comes from a mixture of genuine forgetfulness and procrastination and just not wanting to help. I may have miscommunicated again tongue. He definitely raised concerns and pitched a fit about not wanting a new sibling. That's what caused the atmosphere that combusts in the form of the argument during labor. Even with that, it does make him look unsympathetic but this is an area where I'm not trying to make him look like the good guy here.

As for the last part there's no problem; I completely understand. It is supposed to drive the story in a lot of ways, from the going it alone to their eventual reconciliation with one another. A lot of this story is driven by people acting on emotion, saying/not saying things they probably should. But I digress. It was at least good to have someone look it over, so to speak.

Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19248: Apr 23rd 2021 at 8:46:17 AM

"The question is, is a teenager taking over a criminal gang kind of a news that warrants personal attention of both a chief of police and a city's mayor?"

In 1900? Absolutely not. His social station is so far below theirs that merely being seen in his company could hurt their political careers. I think that a dinner is out of the question. Some other less formal type of meeting might serve instead.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#19249: Apr 23rd 2021 at 8:51:18 AM

Abduct the kid in the dead of night, tie him to a chair, hands bound behind the back, and a potato sack over his head.

Then have the mayor and police chief observe (from a safe distance) as they have the kid answer questions while being unable to see them or hear their voices, as a middle-hand asks the questions and dutifully, delivers his answers 100% accurate to his bosses, as lying in either direction would end badly for the poor messenger if attempted.

Then have the kid returned to his bed once the questioning is over and he can either shake it off as an bad dream or whatnot.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19250: Apr 23rd 2021 at 8:54:57 AM

That would work. Of course, there is the exact opposite approach: send a representative with a bag of money, and a request/demand to keep criminal activities confined to the docks. That's more in line with how public officials and gang leaders dealt with each other back then.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

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