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edited 11th Apr '18 6:31:51 PM by dRoy
Ah, I see!
Is it meant to be a bit of a breakdown on their part? Or is the character particularly given to violence and killing?
Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Sep 9th 2024 at 3:44:05 PM
My Games and Asset Packs
@ Florien:
Not to nitpick, but I don't think it's necessarily a villainous response or sentiment. There does come a point in fiction and in real life where I no longer care about someone's reason or motivation for what they're doing and just want them to be crushed as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Traitors are a particularly egregious example of this; there can be all sorts of reasoning for betraying one's own kind, but few of them are going to move a person who is one of those being betrayed.
In the context of Lone Courier's question, I can see a person finally losing patience with trying to get through to people who turned on their own species and deciding to just exterminate them all. I wouldn't fault a character who made that decision under those circumstances in the slightest.
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
Personally, it at the very least reads as a non-heroic response. I don't see being so upset at someone you want to murder them (and publicly announcing that belief) as a very heroic thing. Like, maybe The Punisher could do that, but not Spiderman. Does that make sense?
Regarding the original question, I think it works. Maybe experiment with making it more on the nose, I think that could work.
Read Otr of the Flame (She/Her)Just in terms of personal feelings, the sentiment of "I want to exterminate you all" is a horrifying one to me—only more so given a stated reason of "so I don't have to think about you". o_o;
(I'll also note that I don't hold any especial loathing for "traitors", especially when it's to a non-being like a country or species.)
My Games and Asset PacksI can understand that; it's certainly not the nicest sentiment. I just think—again, personally—that wanting to kill people who betrayed your country or species is a perfectly understandable and even justifiable response.
Of course, there's a ton of nuance and complexity that is very dependent upon the story, the characters and their actions and a ton of other factors. But in a bare-bones way, I don't think wanting to kill traitors or even acting on it precludes one from being a hero, quite the opposite in fact.
The only thing about this particular example that I'm against is the "so I don't have to think about you". It comes off as angry and even petulant like a child who has been slighted and is reacting in over-the-top fury. That definitely makes it sound like a villain.
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar WalllaceFor LoneCourier0: do you think it would help if the character stated what he didn't like about the organization?
So the audience knows that he's not angry at them just 'cause he doesn't like them, but because they are harming people with their actions.
Maybe changing it so he says:
Edited by TMH-Sir-Iron-Vomit on Sep 10th 2024 at 3:18:11 PM
Oo oo ah ahHow can one show the passage of time/eras without being too overt about it? To give some context to the question:
In her childhood, one of my story's major villains was forcibly imprisoned in a safe house to protect her from any remaining followers of Count Dracula who might want to finish the job of wiping out her bloodline.
This safehouse takes the form of a small but elegant country estate in the United States, far from any towns or cities. The only contact she has is with the staff of the estate—servants, caretakers, and the scholars/researchers who are studying the abilities she has as a descendant of the first werewolf.
The confinement lasts from 1920 to when she escapes in 1949. I'm trying to showcase how things slowly change, even as though she has no access to things like newspapers or contact with people apart from those strictly chosen for the operation.
Edited by Swordofknowledge on Sep 10th 2024 at 8:24:34 AM
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
One obvious case would be the evolution of the clothes and hairstyle of the people she interacts with as time passes. I can't give examples of the top of my head but this should be easy to google.
She might also hear more car engines in the distance as time passes, and possibly some planes flying overhead.
Depending on how stoic the staff is, some of them may mention a war going on (especially if they know people involved in it) and its subsequent ending.
Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
@ C105:
Thanks, that definitely helps. The part about the clothes was something I did ponder over; it's definitely something she'd notice even if they don't actively say anything. The other stuff would also be fairly easy to achieve; she has highly heightened senses due to being a werewolf, so she would certainly hear the sounds of change in the distance—better car engines, planes, etc.
The staff are completely forbidden from discussing any events in the outside world (apart from those related to the mission and the organization they serve) but I could imagine they would slip up due to the massive crisis WW 2 was.
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar WalllaceI can understand that, I daresay.
That said, my own feelings run in quite the opposite direction.
I mean, "hero" is after all a relative term: what is heroic to one may be villainous to another.
My Games and Asset PacksDiscussing about characters talking made me want to talk about my "Envoys" setting— and not just that, I want to properly introduce the Envoy Of Heat's human partner, none other than The Hero and the protagonist, for now named simply “the MC”note .
The shortest way to describe the MC, is to call him “Byronic”: he has a fiery passion for his own ideals; he struggles since his only dream cannot be achieved without sacrificing his or other's health, and yet, he still strives to serve the greater good, something that he's good at now that he has met the Envoy Of Fire.
He's withdrawn, morose, short-tempered and obstinate, but also resolute, selfless, deep and, relevant to this post, educated and creative.
I'm making the MC speak somewhat "flowery": he's meant to come off as solemn and dignified, without having to constantly resort to Purple Prose or Antiquated Linguistics.
Which makes it all the more funny whenever he has to insult or threaten others. Whatever he might say, he tries to always be oddly accurate, and never banal.
- You alcatote! You gormless cementhead!
- Your face: as I saw it, I would've accused you of stealing a cockroach's identity.
- Are you sure you have a normal brain, and not 40 milliliters of mustard inside your skull?
- School Days: it's so infamous, even I heard about it. Lots of senseless, disgusting tragedy and violence. That's why was almost tempted to give it a look. What stopped me? Well, it was originally a visual novel, and that's enough of a reason for me to avoid it.
- [commenting upon other characters doing stupid things from afar] Harlequins coin pointless games.
- You've got no more guts than a blade of grass.
- Kicking you in the arse, is the same as kicking you on your gums!
- It's disgraceful!
- I will kick your sacrum so hard, your backbone will compress.
Any general suggestions on how to make the MC not come off as just tacky?
Oo oo ah ah
So, first point; that's giving me British vibes? You used "Arse", so I take it that's intentional?
Secondly, My first instinct to make him seem sincere might be to give him a buddy? Like, someone who speaks normal and just kinda hangs around the MC, maybe they get a transformation 'round episode 13 or something, maybe they don't and just serve as a glimpse into the mundane world. Either way, I feel some friendly interactions might help make it seem more natural?
MC: Unbelievable! Highway robbery of the highest order! Has this cinema no pride!?
Buddy: Look, it's just some overpriced popcorn. It's not that big a deal.
MC: Not that big a deal!? It's a disgrace, that's what it is!
My logic being that, like, it would ground him? By showing that he more-or-less is accepted by his peers, he kinda comes across as, like, a normal person? It's been a while since I watched it, but I feel like Ankh from Kamen Rider OOO kinda works as an example? Don't quote me on that though.
Edited by Marchen on Sep 10th 2024 at 9:08:59 PM
Read Otr of the Flame (She/Her)Deciding the MC's nationality is not strictly necessary, and yet is possibly one of the biggest challenges I'm facing for this setting.
While I chose "arse" mostly as a less "boorish", but still harsh, alternative to "ass", I'd enjoy the MC speaking with some British accent, especially since I'm a huge fan of Caddicarus, and I've gained a even greater appreciation for British accents and humour.
But even then, he probably won't go as far as using Received Pronunciation; Scottish is more likely.
But if you noticed from the very Italian-sounding "Fabrizio" or "Dario", he might be, indeed, at least partially Italian. Why? Well, because I'm Italian as well, and if there's one thing most Italians have in common, is that we're often egocentric.
It would still fit, since Super Robot animes were massively popular in 70s Italy and are still cult classics. Saint Seiya also was beloved by Italians (and still is), which also draws parallel to the Henshin Hero side of the MC.
He doesn't have to be Italian, he could be something else entirely: Spanish, French, German, Swedish, Czech, Greek, Armenian, Canadian, Argentinian... whatever the case, there's a likely chance that the MC might not even be a native English speaker.
And depending on how the setting itself looks like, things can get even more complicated.
Anyway, one thing was certain: the MC should stand out. Whether he was Bri'ish, or Italian, or even Filipino, people would notice that he's not your stock anime-parody-protagonist.
As for his buddy, well, he already has at least one: the Envoy Of Fire himself, a far more idealistic and naive type of hero, to balance out the MC's "byronicness". And the Envoy Of Fire does speak like a normal person, except when he attempts to imitate the MC's style of talking, and he does sound tacky. And of course, he'll also have to bond with the Envoy Of Spark, and the Envoy Of Core (and the three are part of the same super-Envoy Of Heat), so he has at least three buddies to translate his speech in a more mundane form.
Then there are the other Envoys, and their partners. I'm not sure how much they can count as buddies. While they do have a common enemy, and they can work together for the same goal, I also imagine being a lot of infighting within. Basically, everybody is a Friendly Rival to everybody else.
There probably are some other members of this "group" that also speak in a more formal way. The Envoy Of Wood could speak in a flowery style, if only for the Pun, and they could engage in "eloquence competitions" with the MC. But even then, it'll be a much less intimidating form of flowery-ness.
You know, this is probably because I first assumed the envoys would directly turn into the Mecha, but I was a little surprised to read that the envoys would be such direct characters. Makes total sense though, even though I'm now imagining this anti-hero looking guy walking through the streets of, like, Neo-Florence or whatever, while this marketable-toy-sized beetle on his shoulder keeps bugging him about everything it sees.
I have no strong feeling on his nationality (I think your argument for Italian is nice), I just read his dialogue as sounding kinda Queen's English. I feel that happens with elaborately written characters, but it could just be me.
I do feel giving some kind of civilian cast might be worth it, if only because most toku shows have some sort of central set the hero is based out of or likest to hang. Maybe he has a favorite café where he hangs out/works? And the kind boss tries to give the what I assume to be a young man helpful advice? Maybe some quirky co-workers? Would also justify the other henshin heroes showing up for a plot relevant discussion, I imagine. Or maybe he's part of a classic bad-guy busting organization as the only member really doing any work. Any of these could theoretically involve another henshin hero in a role as to justify their plot involvement.
I guess what it boils down to is that I believe he might feel plausible in spite of his extravagant dialogue if he feels grounded in the world around him? Sure, that's the TLDR.
Read Otr of the Flame (She/Her)Well, that might not be the most extravagant about the MC.
There's a possibility that his house is an orbital station. A one-man (plus three critters) space station.
It also depends on what job the MC has. Space will likely be an important theme for the setting, so I liked the idea that the MC is (or was) some sort of astronaut. Maybe, that's even how he first met the Envoy Of Fire.
Of course, he would still have to descend to Earth to interact with normal people. That, and he has to armor up and become a Henshin Hero, or pilot a mecha, so I'd be surprised if he even has the time to work as an astronaut...
But given that the Envoy's mech bodies were built for interacting with them, that implies that there is at least one organization in the world that knows about the Envoys, and is working to help them. And also knows that Envoys need someone else to fully express their potential.
I still don't know if it's a full-fledged company, with a salary and all, but it solve the "What's the MC's job?" question; because I don't want to make him jobless, I want him to make money in some way.
This would also make the orbital station house unneeded... even if it was a funny idea.
That aside, it'll probably help if I also add civilian characters to the setting, just to act as some kind of glue.
I also should announce a pretty big change regarding Envoys, and what they should carry.
Remember when I first said about the weapon specializations for the Envoys, and how various Envoys would've carried shields as secondary equipment, with the Envoy Of Heat as one of the excptions?
Well, he's not an exception anymore.
One thing that I imagine the Envoys could do is combining their powers, for example a Combination Attack that unites two elements. But more frequently,
they will perform a "Weapon Crossover/Collaboration", where two Envoys craft two weapons of their own class, but with the opposite element, for the other to wield.
An example: if the Envoy Of Electricity (who wields bows) made a Weapon Crossover with the Envoy Of Wood (who wields axes), then they also have access to a lightning-hatchet and wood-bow, respectively. Or the Envoy Of Fire making a Weapon Crossover wit the Envoy Of Gravity, resulting in a burning poi, and a gravity-elemental Zweinhänder respectively.
But this would mean that if some Envoys already carried their own shields, then a Weapon Crossover with the Envoy Of Earth would be redundant in this case.
It's probably better if I play the 1-to-1 weapon specialization straighter, so that only the Envoy Of Earth carries shields most of the time, but still allow for Weapon Crossovers to still give variety. Also, by doing the Crossover with the Envoy Of Earth, not only do the other Envoys gain more defense, but the Earth guy also can wield an actual offensive weapon.
Edited by TMH-Sir-Iron-Vomit on Sep 11th 2024 at 8:29:13 PM
Oo oo ah ahSo, I feel an important detail would be the tech level. Like, I know there's giant robots, but they had that back in the eighties (in the sentais) so it doesn't say much. Is this, like, a relatively hard setting where space travel is kinda difficult but we get giant robots, ala Gundam 00, or is it like a spacier type of Gundam? Or do aliens walk among us ala Star Trek? Do we get casual space stuff like Star Wars?
Also, how old is the MC? I've been imagining early-twenties-ish, but depending on how sci-fi the setting is that might clash. Not that the genre would be that unfamiliar with people having strange jobs at that age.
For a space based job, would, like, space security guard make any sense? Like, I'm imagining an important space machine, and he's the guy who takes care of it, makes sure it's in tip top shape. Low-maintenance, kinda boring, but necessary in this space-age future.
If there's a helpful organization, maybe this satellite is set up to help out the envoys? Maybe he's just a grunt, recruited for his potential and who just happens to partner with the envoy of fire? Not sure this is making sense. Does require fairly casual space travel. Or teleportation.
Maybe a bunch of people live on some sort of Envoy support satellite? If earth-based, it could be kinda like Ultraman and their various kaiju defense forces, but more support focused? Evacuations and emergency drills and education and such. Would fit with the MC's desire to serve the greater good.
Regarding the shields, would it make any difference if Earth got exclusive access to "special shields", allowing any other henshin heroes to have regular-ass shields if it fits their concept? Like, Earth has a shield-shovel, right? So maybe if they do a weapon collab Fire gets a gun-shield and Earth gets a giant sword? That would imply that part of fire's powers is just putting guns on random stuff, but it's just my wild speculation. A better comparison might be Gravity getting some sort of tractor-beam shield.
I do actually think this idea of making Earth the only shield guy is pretty cool. Like, not sure you'll play into that with their personality or not, but that's basically only interesting options. Especially if they all get weird shields while collab-ing, like the previously mentioned shield-shovel, but for their element. Or maybe the Earth shield does something else thematic, since you did say it would be interesting if the Earth guy had to collab to get a proper weapon. Who can say.
Edit: It does actually make some sense to not give everyone shields, not just to make Earth more special, but also because I'm not sure how some of these would use shields? Like, running with the assumption that my weapon suggestions were the best ever and what you're going with, at least two of the heroes have primarily ranged weapons, and wouldn't have that much use for a shield, two have magical-type weapons which would clash with the shield, and several have weapons that kinda require both hands for optimal use, out of which one dual wields. Arguably, the only ones who it would make sense to use a shield are Fire, Water, Space, and Smoke, not counting Earth. The shields having special powers would make up for that to some extent, but does step on Earth's shoes.
Edited by Marchen on Sep 11th 2024 at 9:45:47 PM
Read Otr of the Flame (She/Her)The same tech being embedded in their bodies giving people a Psychic Link is plausible, right? Since it isn't some magic powers, but machines sending and receiving signals.
How should it specifically work and be located for it to be as realistic as possible?
Edited by Nukeli on Sep 12th 2024 at 12:33:05 PM
~*bleh*~
I'm... not entirely sure what you mean. By "the same tech", do you mean the same kind, or literally the same, because that second one will cause a much more literal connection. Unless you mean, like, two halves of the same thing?
I personally find Psychic Powers implausible, no matter what. It doesn't matter what the explanation is, it lands the work firmly in the land of fiction. But, for a sense of reality, I imagine some sort of neural implant makes the most sense, since it could theoretically send and receive signals straight into the brain.
There's a thread somewhere in the on-topic section specifically about the technology, but neural implants require special threads to be inserted into the brain, connected to a small battery. This version would require basically some sort of tiny radio as well as a tiny computer.
Okay, in that case I stand by my suggestion. Brain implant, probably special designed for the purpose of making a Psychic Link, since it'd be a pretty serious design flaw if mind reading was an unintentional side effect of whatever they're doing.
Edit: If it's sci-fi, you could probably make it less invasive, maybe something just stuck under the skin. Should probably still be on the head, since that kinda makes sense from, like, a symbolism perspective, and also to have it close to the brain.
Edited by Marchen on Sep 12th 2024 at 12:03:51 PM
Read Otr of the Flame (She/Her)
I meant that if you have Brain–Computer Interface, you should propably be able to communicate with similiar devices, and thus the other guy's mind.
EDIT: Yeah, the entire purpose is to interface with computers and communicate with other peoples' tech.
While it isn't exactly the same thing, people have apparently controlled each other's actual fingers[1]
and some tech with less invasive stuff though, so maybe in a scifi setting it could plausibly be something else than a chip in their actual brain.
Edited by Nukeli on Sep 12th 2024 at 1:38:35 AM
~*bleh*~From what you've described it
, it would best resemble Gundam 00: we have quite a bit of giant robots, and other stupendous tech, but no casual space travel. When the character eventually go past the Earth's orbit, you know it's a special occasion.
Tech level in general, is a bit hard to define, since humanity has helped by the Envoy to build their mech bodies. Still, a bit futuristic, yet familiar, would be the ideal.
The MC's age? I was imagining 24 years old, which, yeah, can still make him oddly young for his job.
Speaking of which, I was thinking a researcher like an astrophysicist, or even an astrobiologist, instead.
Hey, since you mentioned Kamen Rider OOO, maybe it could be a similar situation to Eiji and Ankh: the MC and his Envoys and the organization know each other, and the organization acts as something of a benefactor to them, offering new items and machines to help them, but the MC is not strictly part of it, and his "true" job is something that starts with "astro-".
Edited by TMH-Sir-Iron-Vomit on Sep 12th 2024 at 2:02:50 PM
Oo oo ah ah

Namely, a heroic character getting so fed-up by the sheer hypocrisy and myopia of the collaborators of an alien empire, who joined out of bigoted reasons.
"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."