The History Thread!

Ooh, saw the trailer for that earlier.

In other news, Ivan Aivazovsky is my new favourite Romantic painter.

Random thought.

When I read medieval European literature, I would frequently see characters getting banished. I was like, what's the big deal? Why couldn't they just stay abroad and come back later?

Then I learned in a college class that when you are banished, it typically means you will be killed when you come back and get caught. With fire, at times.

I was like, "Oh. That makes a lot more sense then."

Ah so it's like deportation. You could technically get the captain to bring you back or similar and people did just that, but if you were caught, you'd be executed, no questions.

Its worse then just that you because you see, traveling abroad wasn't near as convinent as it is now, language barrier, monetary barrier, cultural barrier... and thats all if you can get them to take you in in the first place.... which well... lets just say that as close back as the 1800s the united states.... you know a nation known for immigrants was okay with genocide racial groups out of towns.... go back even further and well.... And may whatever deity you worship forbid if they find out you have been banished....

The end result was that in practice you were cut off from any form of human civilization what so ever, you couldn't go to some place new, you couldn't go back to where you came... the wilderness was much less tamed at the time as well...

For all intents and purposes it was a death sentence without an executioner, because you were most likely not going to survive.

Why is this relevant? Because I am not just talking "your accent is weird", you could have legitmate problems understanding what the person the next town over is trying to say, even if you both spoke the "same language", to use my own native tongue as an example, the difference between prefactures at a point was so extreme that they could be considered there own languages.

I hear Italy is an example of a nation where this still exists as an issue somewhat.

Edited by Imca on Jul 21st 2019 at 5:32:21 AM

There are variations on banishment. One is to be kicked out into the wilderness and like Immy noted that was more or less intended to be a death sentence because solo survival for those whose lives were spent in cities, towns, and built-up areas was based around those locations and many lacked wilderness skills.

Being banished to another country was at best a mixed bag. If you couldn't speak the lingo or pick it up quickly your likely screwed.

There are other things that can happen to the banished such as becoming bandits and supposedly a fair few bandit groups were composed of such people.

And most pre-industrial societies were something like 80-90% farmers, whose livelihoods were tied to their lands. It's hard to rebuild a life in a strange county where you don't speak the local dialect and the local peasants and landlords don't know you - and if they find out that you were banished for a crime, you can say goodbye to all opportunities.

RFK's Secret Role in the Cuban Missile Crisis:

Something I found about today: the Scythians had mobile weed saunas.

Quoth Herodotus:

Tired: Using a Pringles can as a bong.

Wired: A whole yurt as a bong.

Half this thread and half the "Post your random thoughts" thread. What did the European settlers think when they came across skunks for the first time?

50% "Oh, cute."

50% "Oh, lunch."

Why is that workhouses really caught on during the 19th Century, even though they've actually been around since the Late Middle Ages?

When did people start doing that, in that the higher your rank in the military, the less likely you are to fight?

Not sure when it started, but I think it started with someone saying "Well getting someone up to that rank takes time and effort and money, way more than a common infantryman, so we can't afford to lose the higher ranks."

All I know is that kings were still on the frontlines in the 1600-1700ies, though it was definitely getting verz rare.

This is mostly unscientific speculation, but generally, the less well-organised a military is, the more important it is for commanders to lead from the front.

Say you're an elected strategos in a Classical Greek citizen army, some time before the Peloponnesian War. Your troops are your neighbours who are anxious to return home and get back to work, and your officers are probably your drinking buddies whom you've tasked with a random group of a couple hundred men each. Your camp would likely look more like Woodstock than a proper army camp. There are no units below the company level, no NCOs. Some of your fellow strategoi have been to war and are trying to desperately to teach their men formation drills and tell them to not drink their own bath water, but they know that their post is temporary - once the campaign is over, they're back to being legally ordinary citizens, so they don't want to push anyone too hard lest they get sued later by someone they pissed off. Every night you'd meet them to discuss, well, strategy. But it's pretty likely that you were elected because you're a rich, reasonably good-looking guy who helped sponsor a couple of public buildings and not because you know anything about war, so you'd just smile and nod while the few veterans plan where to go next.

After a week of marching and a few dozen guys dead from dysentery, you finally meet some shepherds who tell you that those assholes from the enemy polis are assembling their army across the meadow. This is it. Time to show them what you're made of. But what are you going to do? Find a vantage point and command your troops from there? There's no point. You have no radio. You can only give orders by shouting - have you ever tried to shout over a few hundred men? While they're walking under the sun, shields and armour clinking together? It would've been great if you could give orders with signal flags, or horn calls, something that your men could instantly understand. Alas, you're not in a professional army, and you have no staff officers to come up with that arts-and-crafts shit.

All around you, the officers you appointed try to get their men in line. Thirty to forty abreast, six deep. It's a complete mess. Some are too far forward, some too far back. Some try to slink their way to the back, prompting the guys around them to start walking backwards in turn. One formation is slightly crooked, and its officer is in a shouting match with the one from the neighbouring formation. One officer tries to give his men some pep talk but stumbles on his words, leaving his men even more stressed out than before, and you wish you'd picked someone who's better at public speaking instead. In the distance, you see a veteran strategos facepalming. Gods, what a complete gaggle fuck.

On the horizon, you see silhouettes approaching. Who are we fighting again? The Spartans? Those robotic, teacher's pet bastards who get told to learn formation drills before battle and actually obey? You don't understand why any free man would let himself be pushed around like that, but it seems to be working. They move quickly in the distance, forming up in neat, tight lines and start approaching. You look at your own guys. They trip and bump on each other, leaving holes and gaps in the formation. You hear them whispering to each other and see their faces turn pale.

Shit. Shit shit shit shit shit. What's going to happen when they smash into the enemy army? Maybe if they stand and hold, maybe if they keep fighting until both sides are tired, the enemy will stop attacking and fall back while your men catch their breath. Maybe they can even win! But all around you are tired, terrified faces, looking to nope the fuck out and never face the obviously superior enemy. What if someone at the back loses his nerve and starts running? Then another will follow, and another, and the next thing you know the whole army is running in every direction, leaving the guys fighting at the front to get helplessly slaughtered. Your friends and neighbours are going to be chased down and killed in their thousands and the enemy is going to be looting your city in a week.

The lines are closing their distance. You take a deep breath. Then you yell at the top of your lungs and charge. Your men follow suit. Maybe you can't give them orders, or keep them together if they start to lose their nerve, but godsdammit, at least if they see you running into the fight looking ready to kick ass, they can forget their fear for a moment and follow your lead. And there's no shortage of Greek leaders who met their end in battle! Sparta alone lost Leonidas, Brasidas, Lysander, Agis, Teleutias, and dozens of others. But as long the boys can see their richest, most popular jocks leading them into battle, they'll probably feel confident enough to stand their ground as their friends bleed and die around them.

It's kind of the same logic for later feudal armies. You're a king, with a household guard of a few dozen to a few hundred men who wear good armour and can fight on horseback. You're preparing for a war against a rival kingdom, and tell your lords to muster men. They gather their personal guards and tell the lower nobility (i.e. knights) to gather troops from their lands. They'll start with people who can fight. There's a couple dozen guys from a crossbow guild here. There's a yeoman family there who have been going to war for generations, and both their sons have their own weapons and armour. They fill up the rest of the quota by hiring mercenaries and untrained volunteers. If the war's big enough, they'll start conscripting peasants and you'll end up with thousands of people who aren't very good at fighting and really don't want to be there. In any case, you now have a hella irregular army with only the barest command structure. You only have a faint idea of how many men each lord is bringing, and you don't know if they can follow complicated orders in battle. Half of them probably speak different languages. The best you can do, therefore, is to trust each retinue to follow the plan while you ride out with the small group of men under your direct command, banners raised high, and show friends and foe alike that yes, my king can beat up your king.

Once you get into armies with more professional structures like the Romans and the Mongols, the commander starts to take a (literal) backseat. They had standard drills and formations that their troops were trained to perform, signal systems to transmit commands mid-engagement and a clear hierarchy of officers and NCOs - big, tough guys who lead from the front so the general doesn't have to.

Even then you have many leaders who who led their relatively professional armies from the front - Alexander, Chandragupta Maurya, Gaozu, Augustus, Zenobia, Taizong and Gustavus Adolphus all did it. Some of them were Blood Knight types who genuinely enjoyed fighting, while others did it out of a sense of responsibility or a DIY mentality. But most importantly, it's a way to tell the world that you're a strong, independent leader who doesn't take shit from anyone - something especially important if you're facing unrest and court intrigue at home. If you have a stable nation-state with a well-organised army, you're better off doing the planning and governing than risking your life in the thick of the fighting.

Edited by eagleoftheninth on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:10:26 AM

That is one entertaining (and quite true) post.

There is another practical consideration. The limits of communications. Having the commander present to issue orders to the lead units who effectively lead the ones behind them simplifies the limitations of communication available in that era.

FOLLOW THE BIG BASTARDS WITH THE FANCIEST ARMOR AND FLAGS!

Is pretty easy to handle.

Edited by TuefelHundenIV on Sep 17th 2019 at 6:45:36 AM

There's also the simple morale effect of seeing the biggest, scariest guys on your side smite the enemy like it's nothing. In pre-modern times it's the sight of the king's heavy cavalry slamming through the enemy lines; nowadays it's big machines going BRRRTTT on the enemy.^note Many of these would be helmed/piloted by well-educated officers from upper-middle class backgrounds, so... y'know, war never changes. The trick to armed combat is making sure that your people believe they can do what you're telling them to do - and if you can do it well, why not show them how?

And finally, our cultural expectations of leadership has changed over time. Pre-modern cultures often saw kings and emperors as the literal protectors of their people, so they had to be tough enough to lead them into combat. They had to prove they're willing to do the most difficult thing they were asking their people to do. Today, a commander-in-chief's job is to give their troops clear, logical objectives and the support they need to carry them out - from weapons for combat operations to health care for their family back home. If they're driving around the frontline in a tank, they're not doing that job properly.

I just came across this fascinating and interesting video.

Summary?

Fate was like "let's make Nero f**kable"

To this day, I cannot forgive the Byzantines for failing to copy all but the most mundane Ancient Greek manuscripts when the Arabs FUCKING PAINSTAKINGLY TRANSLATED EVERYTHING into Arabic only for the one big library they kept them all in to get burned by the Mongols.

Hey transcribing things a lot work,and how were they meant to know it would all go up in smoke?

Anyway,speaking of things burning down,the myth that the library of Alexandra's books being lost in a fire is a very persistant myth,apparently the collection was moved elsewhere,so when library was finally destroyed they didn't lose all the books

Shuri Castle has been destroyed.

UNESCO World Heritage Site and seat of a 500 year history now gone in a raging inferno...again. This is not the first time Shuri Castle has been destroyed. Last time it happened, the US Navy was responsible.

Just realized that Nero was a literal neckbeard

Here's another cool video that I found.