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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#251: Apr 5th 2011 at 7:40:17 AM

They did carve up China into spheres of influence after the Boxer Rebellion, though.

And India was conquered not by the Crown itself, but by the mother of all MegaCorps, the British East India Company.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#252: Apr 5th 2011 at 7:43:31 AM

Technically China still had a central government before and after the 1911 revolution, even though Guangzhou, Canton and the coastal provinces were European properties in all but name. India? Last time I checked, a puppet monarchy didn't even exist.

And in the end, Queen Vicky did style herself "Empress of India".

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#253: Apr 5th 2011 at 7:49:34 AM

Correction: Until 1857, the Mughal Emperor nominally reigned over most of India, though of course by then his control was all but a legal fiction. After the Sepoy Rebellion the UK wrested control of India from the BEIC and thus Disraeli was able to get laws through that would make Victoria Empress of India.

See this cartoon.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#254: Apr 5th 2011 at 7:53:33 AM

Ah, I see.

Did I mention since about midway through, the Mughal princes were infamous for backstabbing their dad?

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#255: Apr 5th 2011 at 7:58:53 AM

Can't be any worse than the silly Europeans and their Kabinettskriege succession wars, or the Ottoman custom of strangling siblings of the ascending Sultan.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#256: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:07:57 AM

I always found it amusing that a nation could go around conquering and colonizing a fourth of the world and the biggest threat to its existence was always it's next-door-neighbors.

ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#257: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:11:03 AM

Are you talking about England, or France? Or <insert random European power with a sizable colony base here>?

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#259: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:18:39 AM

Look at Britain's foreign policy - maintaining a Balance of Power so that no one could mount a successful invasion of it.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#260: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:22:19 AM

Indeed, the only time since Roman times England was occupied was when its king was fighting on two fronts at the same time, against both Danes and Normans.

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#261: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:25:12 AM

1688 doesn't count? Granted, there wasn't a battle, and William (notice a pattern?) of Orange was invited to take the throne, but hey.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#262: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:29:35 AM

1688 was more like "Hey, we chased our bastard king out and the throne's empty, want to jump in?". 1066 was pure, undiluted invasion.

Speaking of which, the entire Stamford Bridge-Hasting debacle themselves could spawn a host of AH scenarios. Things would be vastly different if, for instance, Tostig wasn't such a lowlife, backstabbing idiot.

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pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#263: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:33:02 AM

[up][up] Hardly an occupation, though.

edited 5th Apr '11 8:33:21 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#264: Apr 5th 2011 at 8:39:14 AM

Imagine if Harold defeated both Hardrada and William, though it is unlikely.

Though the Glorious Revolution happened because Parliament didn't like a Stuart king going to re-enact his father's absolutist tendencies and was a Catholic to boot. The birth of the Jacobite pretender was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Kaliayev from Dorset Since: Apr, 2010
#265: Apr 5th 2011 at 9:01:47 AM

Well, colonizing and occupying distant nations did bring in the resources which allowed British trade to flourish and pay for the advanced navies and military training, as well as denying their resources to other powers. So long as conquest pays, there is a (nasty) logic to dominating weaker, resource-rich nations to shore up one's position against other more powerful states. Of course, in the long-term, it tends to exacerbate tensions between those with colonies and those without, leading to the potential for more conflict, but in the long-term we're all dead anyway and the Universe will succumb to a slow entropic death.

Anyway, back to China a moment, I was flicking through Ian Morris' Why The West Rules For Now, he mentions General Qi Jiguang, who seems like a pretty cool character. From the sound of it, at the time, the Chinese coast was a nightmare of corruption, smuggling and pirate raids. Morris described it as the Ming version of The Wire. And General Qi, with some sympathetic financial backers, set up a virtual private army of Untouchables, who sorted out the South-East coastal region and drove out the pirates, and worked against bureaucrats on the take.

They were so successful, in fact, that they were then sent to the Great Wall, to defend against Borjigit Mongol raids (probably by corrupt officials in the court, who hoped he may fall in battle against them).

As I recall, there wasn't a pleasant ending to this story, but I'd have to go find the book and check, and, well, that involves effort.

ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#266: Apr 5th 2011 at 9:13:00 AM

Qi Jiguang was listed as one of the 10 greatest Chinese generals in a book I had at home. And far as I remembered, the only LOL BAD END to come out of his career was that his successors ultimately failed to halt the rapidly declining Ming dynasty, and his legacy of badass Japanese Ninja Pirate hunting pretty much ended with his death.

Indeed, Emperor Wenli's reign was so awful, there was literally pretty much nothing his successors could do to halt the decline. By the time the eventual fall of the Ming dynasty rolled in it seemed almost like history's mercy kill to this wreck of a ruling house.

It didn't help that the second-to-last Ming emperor was, in Tropish, a This Loser Is You Cake Eater Ill Boy who might or might not have suffered from severe Asperger's.

edited 5th Apr '11 9:14:04 AM by ArgeusthePaladin

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#267: Apr 5th 2011 at 9:37:45 AM

Well, that does lend credence to the Mandate of Heaven concept.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#268: Apr 5th 2011 at 9:50:39 AM

You can't believe what kind of a mess and kill count an elder eunuch and the emperor's nanny/lover (?!?) can rack up.

Protip: If you hear the Western Workshop somewhere around, RUN THE OTHER WAY. *

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#269: Apr 5th 2011 at 10:11:58 AM

Just another day at the Deadly Decadent Court, then.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#270: Apr 5th 2011 at 10:16:26 AM

Much worse than the European fare.

You see, since China is that much bigger and divisive than any contemporary European power, an inept emperor would have a far more profound impact on the nation's stability.

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#271: Apr 5th 2011 at 10:26:07 AM

Well, large empires = large stability costs.

It was a good thing for the UK that its Empire was managed with a more modern government, and even then it was not immune to the pressure of decolonization.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#272: Apr 5th 2011 at 5:34:38 PM

Speaking of EU...

Me, after 50 years at war with Scotland and France: "STOP. F***ING. REVOLTING."

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Kerrah Since: Jan, 2001
#273: Apr 6th 2011 at 3:43:22 AM

I've been studying the reformation and counter-reformation for my upcoming university entry-exam, and I've got to point something out.

Is it just me or does the founder of the Jesuits look like a total Hollywood villain in this picture? [1]

edited 6th Apr '11 3:44:21 AM by Kerrah

ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#274: Apr 6th 2011 at 4:02:52 AM

[up] Check out Jan Hus. Pretty sure he fits the bill for the modern definition of "charismatic cult leader".

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Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#275: Apr 6th 2011 at 5:25:43 AM

He got nothing on Richelieu, though.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

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