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MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#1: Mar 12th 2011 at 12:57:56 AM

Okay, I was just reading one of H. Turtledove's World War novels tonight, and IMO, in comparison to most of the movies in the genre the story was actually damned good, but unfortunately couldn't really be remade for the modern-day the same way that The War Of The Worlds could because of all the period equipment (valves are still in use, jets, nukes and rockets are just coming of age etc.). So that got me thinking, now to write a believable, modern Alien Invasion story where the aliens' equipment is much better on its own, even given the sort of 10+ - 1 numerical odds its going to be facing, yet not so powerful that the aliens can just walk over humans. What I eventually came up with was that the aliens never discovered the semiconductor, but instead continued to make valves better and better until they could at least rival 60s era computers.

So, discuss, how do you think an alien invasion would go if the aliens hadn't invented transistors?

Captainbrass captainbrass from United Kingdom Since: Feb, 2011
captainbrass
#2: Mar 12th 2011 at 5:44:21 AM

Wouldn't that just make it more difficult for them to cross space and actually invade in the first place? It's not as if we're exactly contemplating intergalactic travel with the technology we have now.

"Well, it's a lifestyle."
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#3: Mar 12th 2011 at 6:00:20 AM

I think you need microcomputers to be able to do the orbital mechanics fast enough to actually get your spacecraft on target.

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#4: Mar 12th 2011 at 10:44:52 AM

Would a differential analyzer work? They worked fast enough to be used for targeting during WWII.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#5: Mar 12th 2011 at 10:53:35 AM

Wouldn't that just make it more difficult for them to cross space and actually invade in the first place? It's not as if we're exactly contemplating intergalactic travel with the technology we have now.

We put men on the Moon with little more computing power than engineer's slide rules and a mainframe system that is beaten by a pocket calculator today.

I can see intergalactic travel being done without the need for computers beyond 1972 provided there's a reason why intergalactic travel (presumably Faster Than Light) exists.

JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#6: Mar 12th 2011 at 7:19:12 PM

Perhaps it's not an intergalactic invasion, but an interplanetary one? We have no idea what's under Europa's ice crust, after all...

But putting that aside, one still does not need FTL for long-distance space travel, only patience, determination, and some degree of longevity. They could simply be wedding desperation and a zen attitude.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#7: Mar 13th 2011 at 4:57:13 AM

[up][up] But the astronauts didn't have their computers with them. Unless there's FTL comms avaliable, you'd need to take a multi-ton computer with you, and that'd be somewhat impractical. Though there's less of an issue if FTL comms exist.

edited 13th Mar '11 4:58:58 AM by Yej

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#8: Mar 13th 2011 at 6:59:56 AM

^^ All spacecraft have their own computers for their navigation and other systems. In 1970 at the height of the Apollo landings, the combined computing power of an entire ship (lunar lander included) is beaten by a 15 dollar calculator today.

The mainframes at base are used for calculating everything else ahead of time. Fuel burn times, total course duration and destinations, expected travel time (including radio blackouts), and other things. The ship aboard can calculate those things but it's better to have that information on hand ahead of time and leave the ship's computers doing stuff that requires immediate attention.

If in this setting above there is Faster-Than-Light Travel we can assume there's FTL Radio to convey advanced computing needs to the vacuum tube built computer systems aboard each ship.

Borkless from 112365365321 Since: Jan, 2011
#9: Mar 13th 2011 at 9:38:33 AM

That sounds awesome. Also, i believe Vacuum tubes are immune to EMP (and presumably radiation damage inducing random bit-changes)

I don't always comment, but when I do, expect me to edit the crap outta it.
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#10: Mar 13th 2011 at 9:48:47 AM

Heat output may be another issue, even on an FTL spaceship. Valves generate orders of magnitude more heat than the equivalent number of transistors.

Theram A travelling scholar Since: Jan, 2011
A travelling scholar
#11: Mar 13th 2011 at 11:54:27 AM

The only way I could see this working is through Organic Technology acting both as a means of transportation and as a weapon. (Varja, anyone)? This would also require an intuitive understanding of the structure of spacetime, which would make ANYBODY a total nutjob anyway, so them not caring about less evolved organic life makes sense. ;)

GiantSpaceChinchilla Since: Oct, 2009
#12: Mar 13th 2011 at 2:09:26 PM

It might be a bit of a handwave but what if there are two groups of aliens? one with the computers and perhaps the FTL?

MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#13: Mar 13th 2011 at 3:18:26 PM

My original thought for the aliens' interstellar travels (which would be slower-than-light) was having one ship that was basically a 'computer' and observatory crewed by mostly mathematical savants, which acted as a pathfinder, which would contain not only all of the equipment to plot a course afresh, but a couple of decades worth of calculated courses from back home.

Their military hardware would be mostly physically better than ours, but would be limited - by their lack of electronics - to either line-of-sight or pre-calculated targets. Not that that would give us too much of an advantage of course, since they'd smash most of the satellites, but we'd at least still have the advantage of laser-guided weapons and such. They'd also use compact nuclear-fission plants rather than petrol.

I've also come up with an enemy for them, aliens who've developed shields that can deflect bullets and bombs. Of course, with that, they've thrown their guns away and got lasers, but haven't realised that while their shields are good at stopping bullets, they're not good enough to stop anything travelling at less than about 150 km/h, like grenades, and that while carbon - which forms the majority of their armour - is good at heat dissipation, it's not so good at stopping physical explosions. They'd use advanced hydrogen cells for power.

edited 13th Mar '11 3:24:57 PM by MattII

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#14: Mar 14th 2011 at 12:42:06 PM

Well to be fair, you don't need semiconductor computers to perform space travel, or even travelling to another solar system. Some good mathematicians are good enough. It's not actually that hard.

Your real issue is precision weapons and high-speed warfare. Mobility and precision DOES require better computers, so these aliens could have giant death particle beams but have manual aiming. That would be fairly schizo but it would give humans a chance anyway. We have IR missiles and they have doom cannons that are manually aimed.

MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#15: Mar 14th 2011 at 2:38:44 PM

it's not them who have the death-rays, its the other guys. Precision Weapons, as far as the first invaders go is developments of the Fritz X, or actual dive-bombers. They might well freak out when they start taking losses from our 'self-thinking' munitions.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#16: Mar 14th 2011 at 2:47:15 PM

^^ The first guided missiles such as the original AIM-9 Sidewinder heatseeking missile and the SA-2 Guideline (NATO Reporting Name for the S-75 Dvina) SAM were not transistor technology. They were 1950s guided weapons (and for the era remarkably effective).

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#17: Mar 14th 2011 at 7:01:09 PM

Fair enough, you can have rudimentary precision with just tubes. I was thinking more like our current 250 lb laser guided bombs.

So anyway, how many invasions are there?

Humans are on earth. Then Aliens invade who are computerless. And then computerised aliens invade?

edited 14th Mar '11 7:02:02 PM by breadloaf

MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#18: Mar 14th 2011 at 9:05:37 PM

So anyway, how many invasions are there?

Humans are on earth. Then Aliens invade who are computerless. And then computerised aliens invade?

Yeah, just those two.

Basically, the first lot comes, and tries but fails to take over. Nor can they go home either, since we manage to slag their pathfinder ships, and so we force them to hand over most of their stuff and settle down in the, to us, less hospitable areas of the world like the sahara desert.

Years later, the second lot come, and as it turns out, the first lot tried to conquer them as well a couple of centuries back, but it didn't work out to well, and now they're trying genocide against the first lot, and aren't too picky about who gets caught in the crossfire.

GiantSpaceChinchilla Since: Oct, 2009
#19: Mar 14th 2011 at 10:10:30 PM

are the computer-less invaders adverse to organically guided bombs, missiles, or projectiles? you could go the rout of Project Pigeon, Project X-ray, or suicide aviators.

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#20: Mar 15th 2011 at 12:41:21 PM

Okay so it's something of the sort where interstellar space travel's biggest problem then in your setting is social psychology, rather than technology. In the case of humans, we're too concerned with the "here and now" to get off our rock whereas with them, they're highly patient and fully willing to wait the length of time it takes to invade people across vast stellar distances.

Then the second aliens come in and have a "nuke em all" attitude. Other than humans getting killed in the crossfire, what capabilities do they have over humans? If they could just wipe out the first aliens, are humans capable of just stepping back, take the losses and hope the second aliens go away?

MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#21: Mar 15th 2011 at 1:52:13 PM

Other than humans getting killed in the crossfire, what capabilities do they have over humans?
Shields, and actual worthwhile lasers, but not much more these days (the shields protect against pretty much everything else except mines)

If they could just wipe out the first aliens, are humans capable of just stepping back, take the losses and hope the second aliens go away?
Nope, because the first round of strikes catches several embassies to the first alien's 'nations', and a lot of tourists. Following this, they demand the surrender of all human nations, and the handing over of all of the first aliens. They get a nasty shock when, not only don't we kowtow, we hit back, slagging some of their ships (with EMP, if that works in space, or ball-bearings followed by nukes if it doesn't), including all of their orbital-weapons ships, forcing them to either retreat or invade.

edited 15th Mar '11 9:17:27 PM by MattII

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#22: Mar 15th 2011 at 3:56:38 PM

EMP works in space, it'd be basically microwave bombs (not very good blast radius mind you).

So, humans are angry having been caught in the crossfire so they lash out at the second aliens with all their weapons. Do humans have a chance at winning?

MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#23: Mar 15th 2011 at 10:08:26 PM

not very good blast radius mind you
Don't need to have much of one, 50 EMP bombs to take out 14 ships just long enough for the follow-up nukes to go off (the new enemy only sent 40 ships altogether, and only 10 of them have orbit-to-surface weapons, and we get all of those).

Do humans have a chance at winning?
They sure do, the aliens have been relying on shields for so long that they've forgotten that their shields don't protect them against all projectile weapons (a bowling ball at 130 kph is going to be just as lethal as a shotgun round), and that armour made to dissipate heat is not usually very good at surviving impacts (one community takes out half the enemy force with an up-armour bulldozer, and a lot of troops die in the cities once word gets around that bull-bars are effective). The aliens have also mostly neglected aircraft, given that they can't carry big enough lasers to do any real damage, nor enough armour to protect against vehicles even half their weight, which works to our advantage since we can hit them with cluster mines without having to worry about their aircraft. EM Ps also shut them down for a while, although, as with cluster mines, we lose aircraft as often as not. Oh, and they're not too fond of fog, sandstorms, or anything else that blocks clear vision, like water-bombs filled with paint.

As for why they actually come, well, the news of our defeat of the first aliens made them think that either we'd wiped them out, and so they'd come to congratulate us, or that we'd hand them over willingly since we'd hate them.

edited 15th Mar '11 11:35:13 PM by MattII

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