Multiple Definitions?: Dead Baby Comedy

Can't we just say that Dead Baby Comedy is a subtrope of Black Humor?

We can, I assume it is, but it doesn't solve the problem. It's a subtrope, in what way?

• That it's Black Comedy that involves babies? That's not how it's used at least half of the time. ("A series which relies on controversy.")
• That it's Black Comedy as applied to the whole series? That's not how it's used at least (the other) half of the time. ("Truly tasteless jokes.")
• That it's Black Comedy that's tasteless? That's Complaining About Jokes You Don't Like.

^The first possibility you list is the one that sounds the most straightforward and direct for a trope.

The second is still only Black Comedy. The last one, however, isn't really Complaining About Anything You Don't Like; it's just a matter of subjective opinion.

"This involves dead babies" allows for the least ambiguity and most objectivity, yes.

I still think the "this joke is tasteless" definition highly unnecessary. That can go to Dude, Not Funny! or something.

If we do take that initiative, I suggest renaming it to Joking About Dead Babies or something just in case some editors are still using the older definition.

edited 1st Apr '11 9:19:04 PM by Catalogue

I don't think a trope about series based on jokes that rely on offensiveness to be funny would have to be subjective. Sure, people may argue over whether something is actually offensive, but it's hard to argue the comic's intent, as the jokes wouldn't make sense without that aspect.

This is not what a Black Comedy is: a black comedy is merely based on cynicism. These types of jokes are the ones made by Shock Jocks, or, say Sarah Silverman. It's not complaining, as a lot of people like those types of jokes.

That said, I think we should reserve this title for actual Dead Baby Jokes.

Even if we assume it is not necessarily subjective, the trope would still be split between series-based and events-based. We need to repair that.

So based on that preposition, it would be:

• Black Comedy: Black comedy as we know it. Preexisting term.
• Dead Baby Comedy: Series/jokes (pick one) relying in shock value.
• Dead Baby Jokes: Jokes about literally dead infants.

Your experiences may vary, but the way I've usually seen the terms Black Comedy and/or Dark Comedy used, they mean humor derived from topics not usually thought of as humorous. Shock humor of the kind talked about here would therefore be a sub-trope of Black Comedy.

That was taken off the page for Black Comedy and it highlights the differences between the two pretty well. Black Comedy portrays a serious situation in a humorous light without fully removing the tragedy from it. Dead Baby Comedy takes nothing seriously, and trivializes serious or controversial issues in an attempt to use shock to entertain. Which is still pretty funny, just in a different way. Dead Baby Comedy is like an Aristocrats joke: it's not so much the punchline, but the shock value of the joke that makes it funny.

edited 22nd Apr '11 7:03:26 PM by tropetown

That's one way of categorising them, but I do think it's unnecessarily making things difficult. Too subtle, it makes the line very blurry. Is Dead Baby Comedy a pre-existing term?

Speaking only for myself, I don't think I've heard it before coming here (certainly not to the extent I've heard, say, Black Comedy or Gallows Humor). "Dead baby joke", on the other hand, probably exists, but it seems to me that would be Exactly What It Says on the Tin: a joke about dead babies. (And I don't think we need a trope for that: not because it's tasteless, but because it's Too Specific.)

edited 23rd Apr '11 1:35:20 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

If so, I don't see much reason we must look for some subtle meaning which, if it existed, is surely lost by now. Black Comedy will be a pre-existing term, and Dead Baby Comedy will either be about "a series relying on controversy" or be axed.

Again, just an opinion./

I think if we're going to look for a simple definition, this might work:

That would let its definition as a style of comedy stand, and also define a series which uses this, without having to give it its own trope. For the first definition, I would further explain it by saying that the shock value has to be intentional; instead of simply adding gags you find tasteless or offensive (which is mostly due to personal preference), it would have to be clear that the shock was the point of the humor (ie: South Park, which is an example of this type of comedy done well). For the second definition, that doesn't mean that there cannot be any other element to the jokes made (again, watch South Park for an example), nor does it mean that the series must exclusively use this type of humor, only that the humor in the series is often of this type, and removing it would largely change the nature of the show.

edited 23rd Apr '11 9:52:41 PM by tropetown

So in short it's like the "series which..." definition, but when a work used the style while not relying on them it still counts? That's better, I think... That could do.

Other thoughts?

Again, "a series which relies on controversy to be funny or interesting or whatever" would require that examples show something to prove or explain a work having generated several unique controversies, all of which also peak greater public interest in the work. Otherwise, that wouldn't be a very fitting definition.

A general description for Shock Humor should be more suited for a trope page though.

edited 23rd Apr '11 11:06:04 PM by SeanMurrayI

Very well: I propose we either change this to Shock Humor or can it altogether.

There were also suggestions about making a trope about literal dead baby jokes, although I think it's a bit too specific...

I feel that "jokes that involve dead babies in some manner or fashion" is good enough to stand as a trope. It highlights something peculiar about some of the darkest, sickest, meanest things people like to suggest (and always in a lighthearted tone).

Maybe related to Eats Babies or something.

edited 24th Apr '11 12:24:39 AM by SeanMurrayI

Shock Humor would definitely be a valid trope.

Should we use Dead Baby Jokes as an Internal Subtrope of Shock Humor? And Shock Humor as an Up To Eleven version of Black Humor (like they probably are in real life)?

Dead Baby Jokes sounds a bit Too Specific for its own trope. I do agree that Shock Humor would be a valid title change though. The Dead Baby part of Dead Baby Comedy seems more metaphorical than literal, but it sounds like it's confusing a lot of people. Also, Shock Humor isn't necessarily Black Comedy Up To Eleven, but it would make sense as a subtrope.

edited 24th Apr '11 3:17:10 PM by tropetown

A good quote from The Other Wiki on this discussion: "Although the two are interrelated, black comedy is different from straightforward obscenity in that it is more subtle and does not necessarily have the explicit intention of offending people. In obscene humour, much of the humorous element comes from shock and revulsion, while black comedy might include an element of irony, or even fatalism."

Another good point of comparison: while both of these VG cats comics are listed under Dead Baby Comedy, this first example is more of an example of Black Comedy, while the second example created as a Take That! against the people who complained about the first one is an actual example of Dead Baby Comedy.

Also, the current page image doesn't really apply. A blind man putting a baby in the mircrowave on accident is Black Comedy. A man putting a baby in the microwave For the Evulz would be Dead Baby Comedy

edited 27th Apr '11 7:56:11 PM by Aethix

That for me is unnecessarily subtle; Dead Baby Comedy is not a pre-defined term, I see no reason to make that sophisticated a distinction, which will only confuse people. Also, what would be the difference between Dead Baby Comedy and Crosses the Line Twice?

The current page image is initially for Black Comedy, people moved it here because they submit to the more literal interpretation of the trope.

There are many tropes on this wiki which have pretty subtle definitions between them though: a good example is Well-Intentioned Extremist vs Knight Templar. Now, the difference between the two is rather subtle; the Extremist is going after a good goal, but is overly ruthless pursuing it, while the Templar just believes he is (whether or not he actually is doesn't seem to matter, the belief is what is important), and is overly ruthless in persecuting those who go against him. However, it is clear that, despite their similarity, they describe different tropes altogether. A rename would possibly help clear up any misunderstandings with this trope, and it could maybe become a subtrope of Black Comedy, but redefining it as being about dead baby jokes alone is taking the meaning of the title too literally I think.

edited 8th May '11 9:27:26 AM by tropetown

I know the discussion has stalled, but I was adding an example and wanted to chime in with my thoughts.

From my readthrough of this page, the trope describes any over-the-top controversial element (involving traditionally "comedy taboo" subjects like rape, death, bodily harm, etc.) which may or may not be acceptable to current audiences. It may exist throughout the entire work, or may occur solely in one scene - there's no limitation.

It can involve attempted humor revolving around dead babies, but that's not the only criteria. It seems to have a very malleable definition with an underlying constant.

I agree that the paragraph about differentiating it from Black Comedy (which is funny, yet serious) is written a bit haphazardly.

Has this been resolved? The current Dead Baby Comedy page defines it in relation to Black Comedy, a bit. Both are pre-existing terms, which makes it a bit hard to really do anything here...

edited 6th Nov '11 8:58:42 AM by Aquillion

I thought the distinction between Dead Baby Comedy and Black Comedy was that the former was about treating horrible things like a joke, while the latter was about using them for humor while still emphasizing how tragic they are in real life.

Granted, this is a continuous distinction, not a binary one, and many examples blur the line. (The Simpsons, for example, is mostly more along the lines of Black Comedy, while Family Guy is more along the lines of Dead Baby Comedy, and South Park seems to be somewhere in between.)