This is something that is always bugging me about Batman's villains - are they even supervillains? I mean, yeah, many of them like Mr Freeze or Clayface clearly are but "super" implies that for example Two-Face is in some way more dangerous and capable than regular mobsters like Rupert Thorne or Tony Zucco.
In this case it generally has to do with the mindset. As Joker said it’s not about the money, it’s about sending a message.
All mobsters care about is money, Gotham’s masked rogues care about other things and will go farther than the mob ever could to reach em.
It fits Two-Face especially in his Knight Templar moments.
Edited by slimcoder on Mar 18th 2022 at 1:08:00 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Basically this. Bless Megamind, that's still seriously the best description of what makes a supervillain a supervillain I've ever heard. It's not about powers, it's about image.
Batman villains are by and large Dick Tracy villains turned up to eleven: most of them may just be gangsters, but they're bombastic, larger than life uber-gangsters who occasionally have James Bond-esque master plans for all of Gotham, that sort of thing.
That said, because Batman's home series interprets superhero stuff almost strictly through noir and/or urban thriller stories, it's true some of his characters difficult to put side by side with characters from other DC heroes. Two Face is actually a really good example: not because he's not a supervillain, but because literally everything that makes Two-Face interesting is in Gotham City, and he's a villain designed to bounce off the corruption of that particular town and Bruce / Gordon's own personal angst, etc. Outside of Gotham, he's got nothing to do.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 18th 2022 at 11:45:03 AM
One thing that Batman:TAS did that I don't think it gets enough credit for is showing Batman as compassionate. In "Harley's Holiday," for instance, there's that bit at the end where Harley asks him why he stayed with her all day (as opposed to letting Bullock take her or letting Ronnie Vreeland's dad blast her with his tank), and he tells her that he had a bad day too, once, and then gives her the dress that set off her whole chain of chaos. He doesn't have a lot patience with the narcissists like The Joker, the Penguin, or The Riddler, but yo do get him trying to talk Two-Face and Mr.Freeze and the villains he knows are broken individuals out of whatever shenannigans they've gotten up to. Later, there's his conversation with Ace in "Epilogue" from Justice League Unlimited. Not every iteration of Batman goes out of it's way to show him being compassionate.
Yeah, imo that's one of the key traits that makes this version of Batman so continuously endearing, and TNBA stands out because they specifically removed Batman's compassion as a character trait - as have a lot of other adaptations since.
I tend to see it as something similar to what Superman tends to get: much like how adaptations often forget that Superman is a person and not just a messiah figure, adaptations sometimes forget that one of the things that make Batman who he is, is a strong undercurrent of compassion under his cold exterior. It's something the comics haven't forgotten (for the most part), but adaptations often overlook.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 18th 2022 at 12:02:43 PM
I remember a Twitter post a while ago that pointed out how a lot of episodes of the original series end with the villain basically having a complete anguished break-down, and Batman being the closest thing to a sympathetic ear.
Like, there were even episodes where he outright offered comfort to them.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Mar 18th 2022 at 4:45:55 AM
Huh. It strikes me that, considering Batman is often the most sympathetic ear a lot of his very damaged villains encounter, considered from a certain angle, his role is as much to bring them to justice humanely as it is to protect other from their machinations. As often as we hear the joke about how a SWAT team could end the Joker in just a couple of minutes, anyone who's seen the news knows that police encounters with most of Batman's villains would likely end with the villain in question (and probably others) dying in a hail of bullets.
Funny how Batman gets taken to task for being too violent ("beating up the mentally ill") AND not being violent enough ("think how many people'd be saved if Batman just killed the Joker").
That's something that's caused me to reexamine my own views on Batman lately. Mind, I still hold a personal annoyance towards characters who are heroic billionaires and the like, but the difference with Batman is that, when people focus on his empathetic qualities, he becomes a genuinely engaging character compared to the escapist "Batgod" shit a lot of writers pull. Batman in the right hands can be a character haunted by a childhood trauma, shrouded in darkness but who fights to prevent the same thing from happening to other people.
I think part of the overall backlash against Batman has been a mix of recent portrayals (The Dark Knight Rises and Batman v. Superman in particular, though probably some stuff in the comics too) and ongoing political concerns that have led people to revolt against the concept of a billionaire superhero. Iron Man has had similar backlash after Age of Ultron and *especially* after Endgame. Lately though, I've seen the backlash against Batman shift after the recent movie with Robert Pattinson.
![]()
The thing I love about the new Matt Reeves' movie is that it showcases what this stoic, violent Batman would actually inspire: Copycats like the Riddler who wants to clean up Gotham through murderous means. Really, it actually explains why I hated the notion of Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the true face. Because Batman as he's often stereotypically depicted comes across a fake persona at best, something you see out of propaganda stories, and a monster at worst. There is nothing human about the Bat. And to suggest that this is Bruce's real face, that implies that Bruce is a jackass who really needs to be locked up in Arkham. And the film wonderfully deconstructs it and has Batman learn to become a symbol of hope and compassion, his biggest heroic moment isn't beating a supervillain, but saving people from disaster, starting with the late mayor's son.
As someone who likes the “Batman is the true persona and Bruce Wayne is the mask” take, I can’t disagree more with your post and BTAS shows why, as Known Unknown pointed out better than I could.
I haven’t watched the Reeves’s movie yet, but the “Batman” persona isn’t just the guy who strikes fear in the “superstitious and cowardly lot,” he’s the guy who tries to help the likes of Harley, Two-Face, Ventriloquist, etc.., reform (as indicated by BTAS) and helps provide the example for others to do good (be it in BTAS, the Nolan films, or in the comics with cases like Gotham/Gotham Girl).
Grant Morrison's Batman run is a pretty perfect example of that as its one of the most friendly showcases of Batman, best exemplified by immediately giving a young streetwalker a job to get her off the street and always having a friendly chat with her whenever they happen to meet.
And Batman also uses his resources to essentially fund not just city projects like building cheap buildings for the impoverished, but also around the country and world like lots of stuff to help Chief Man-of-Bats and Red Raven's reservation.
By the end of the comic Batman Incorporated has cost well over a 100 million dollars in humanitarian efforts and supporting crimefighters across the globe.
Edited by slimcoder on Mar 18th 2022 at 8:08:27 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."![]()
![]()
![]()
That's kinda my point. When Batman lacks anything humane and is stereotyped as a stoic badass and jerkass, he's not a hero or even a real person.
Unfortunately, that's the side that popular culture focuses on rather than Batman's compassion. As a result, I can't help but see Linkara's caricature of Batman every time I see Batman 1989, Batman Arkham Series, The Dark Knight or Batman v Superman.
Batman cannot be the real face until he shows compassion to the people he rescues. That's how you know he's human and not some monster that scares criminals.
Edited by Shadao on Mar 18th 2022 at 8:14:40 AM
I always took the "Bruce Wayne is the mask" idea to describe useless playboy Bruce Wayne, who really was a mask, as that behavior wasn't any part of Batman's actual character. That was the dual identity idea based on the Scarlet Pimpernel/ Zorro model. I think that idea starts to weaken a little when they have Bruce create the Wayne Foundation and start working with social programs, which actually gave him some positive stuff to do as Bruce Wayne. It was actually a point that got raised back in the '70's, in the Englehardt era, where Bruce was surprised that he was actually starting to enjoy being Bruce Wayne a bit, and the good he could do as Bruce Wayne.
Bruce Wayne is actually working to save Gotham from both ends, doing the spade work of urban renewal and social investment as Bruce Wayne and fighting crime and costumed loonies as Batman. People like to conveniently forget the first part in their rush to look clever by pointing out ways Batman is unheroic.
Some people want every excuse to hate the character.
I remember arguing with someone who actually said they should do a Batman story where as the "ultimate deconstruction" of the character, Bruce funds and supports lobbyists and politicians who enact policies against minorities because he is a "fascist who targets poor people."
Thats actually a reason why they love Bv S because it shows Batman targeting poor neighborhoods and beating up poor people.
Which ugh to everything. Its the worst thing I ever heard in my life. Makes Batman: Reptilian by Garth Ennies a gold-standard story by comparison.
Edited by slimcoder on Mar 18th 2022 at 8:34:21 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
I feel like that’s similar as how to some people find Superman boring because he is a paragon of goodness and how powerful he is. Essentially thinking he’s a messiah and forgetting that he’s actually not. Or they want to make him flawed which tends to not work as that’s when we get stuff like “Evil Superman” plots.

More like it was an action choreography problem.
As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.