Really? I can (and have) pinpoint parts of much later episodes, where the mood whiplash felt less intentional and was therefor even more distracting.
Having watched the 2003 anime first, there was something that felt really odd when watching Brotherhood: Mustang's insistence on finding and killing Hughes's killer.
Oh, uncovering the conspiracy that had Hughes killed and attacking the people responsible, that's perfectly understandable. However, Brotherhood Mustang is obsessed with finding the specific person who killed Hughes, the one who actually pulled the trigger. While he bears plenty of hostility towards the leaders of the conspiracy that ordered Hughes's death, it's only being confronted with the actual gunman that makes him go ballistic.
That just seems kinda odd to me. I mean, Mustang's a soldier, and one who committed war crimes to boot; while he's not the sort to accept "I was just following orders" as an excuse, it still seems like he should know to direct most of his outrage at the person giving the orders, not the footsoldier who dutifully carries them out.
Mustang stated, like right after Hughes's death that he will find and punish the one who killed him, one of his main motive throughout the series is finding Hughes's killer, and every-time he ask ask a person if they killed Hughes he gives one nasty cold glare.
It was pretty much, foreshadow that if Roy ever found out who did it, things would get ugly real fast.
If there's one problem I had with 2003 is how they handle the aftermath of Hughes death, really, the Elric brothers didn't find out like nearly till the end of the story, and even then there reaction was to rage for one scene, after that they never mention it again, barring the car scene in "Good-Bye".
Yeah, but why did he feel that way? Why is he so intent on knowing the identity of the specific person who fired a gun at Maes Hughes when he knows that person was almost certainly carrying out someone else's orders?
I'm not saying it's unreasonable for him to hate the gunman, just that his rage towards them seems disproportionate to his rage at the higher ups who ordered the hit.
P.S. I thought the point of the Elrics finding out about Hughes so late was to drive home the theme that, with all that was going on, they couldn't afford to let personal issues, like the death of a friend, distract them. It's like that scene in a lot of war stories where someone will be killed on the battlefield, and, after a moment of shock, their friends are forced to press on ahead without getting any time to grieve.
edited 16th Jul '12 5:47:08 AM by RavenWilder
His rage toward the gunman could because of the way the author written, seeing as we were shown in the past that despite the Homunculus being pawns of Father, the Homunculus set his plan in motion without Father providing the main orders to every set back.
An example would be Lust eagerly wanting to kill Roy for knowing too much, which was the same case with Hughes however Bradly decided to spare Roy because, he provide use for them.
That scene pretty much imply that Father doesn't care what his children do so as long as his main goal is a success.So it seem that it was Envy and Lust decision to do Hughes in, hence why she wrote Roy to desperately know who it is.
Well that what I think anyway...
As for Hughes death, it just the 2003 flesh his character alot more then Manga/Brotherhood, yet he was forgotten easily, and given how 2003 handle the more emotional side of FMA it really disappointing, that he was cast aside like that, I feel like there wasn't any closure to it.
Heh, it ironic, Hughes was a major character in 2003, yet the aftermath of his death's was treated very minor to the plot. yet in Brotherhood, his character was minor, but his aftermath was more major to the plot.
edited 16th Jul '12 6:34:57 AM by DavidtheMouse14
Most definitely.
I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serialWell, obviously he wanted to take down the organization that ordered his death (or, in this case, raised the killer who made a rather unilateral decision), but Mustang is only human, after all. He wanted revenge.
The fact that the one who did the deed was such an utter bastard didn't help matters.
And yes. The manga rocks. I was surprised to see them cut out Youswell, except for that silent film flashback of Yoki's.
edited 16th Jul '12 8:56:31 AM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...It's got pretty much everyone else beat in character development, storytelling, characters, and HSQ. The only thing anyone could possibly fault the manga for is perhaps the art. Other than that? Better than every other manga by far.
I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serialAgain I like Brotherhood, mostly because I was very glad that it would do the parts of the manga the first anime didn't do.
I thought it was interesting how the two took different tracks now and again. Both approached Equivalent Exchange as a philosophy, and came to very interestingly different conclusions. Both asked the question of "would you sadrifice yourself for someone you loved?" and botht he answer and the reasoning were quite different.
And yet, they all stemmed from the same ideas and the same characters. It's fascinating, is what it is.
I have a message from another time...This is actually something I've thought a lot about. I watched the first anime and loved pretty much everything except the movie. I switched over to brotherhood and was really happy with it for a while, but by the end I couldn't stand it.
For a long time I couldn't really figure our what I didn't like. Brotherhood followed the manga and so made sense through to the end. The first series got iffy as it diverged. But the thing is, as flawed as the first anime was, I actually liked it's end much better than the brotherhood/manga ending.
The whole tone of the story just seemed to shift right around the point where the first anime breaks off. For me, this was a turn for the worse. The tone started with grim hope and ended with mealy-mouthed, sugary optimism. I’ll try to list a few specific points that came to mind.
- Xing. The fma world was so compelling for me because it was a closed circle. There was no way to escape the homunculi because they controlled everything in Amestris. Xing changed all this by suddenly making the Elrics’ world much larger. Adding a sanctuary outside the homunculi's power put a huge crack in their apparently omnipotent scheming. In terms of feel, the mere presence of Xing lightened things by offering an alternative to the brutality and corruption of Amestris.
- Lin, etc. Not to hate on Xing too much, but the characters from there were another big part of what broke fma for me. They're interlopers. They’re strangers who just sort of dropped into the story and made a mess of everything that's going on. Lin especially tends to monopolize at the expense of characters much more central to the story. They all drew attention from the main thrust of the story and weakened it as a result.
- Too many fights. For me, the main appeal of fma was never the fights. Sure it was cool when Edward duked it out with Envy or Scar, but what made these clashes awesome was the cathartic release that came from knowing just what lead to the fight. I remember someone saying the fight with Sloth was better in brotherhood because it was longer and more extravagant. I felt the fight with Sloth in the first anime was better for the exact opposite reason. Sure it may have only lasted a few minutes, but the fight actually ment something. There was an emotional impact there better than anything in Brotherhood. A fight without stakes isn't really interesting. By the end of brotherhood I felt the focus had markedly towards more drawn out, pointless fights.
- Alkahestry. In the same way that the corrupt nation of Amestris served to confine and manipulate the Elrics physically, the rules of Alchemy confined them spiritually. Equivalent exchange wasn’t something that could be bypassed even with the philosopher’s stone, i.e. life could only be paid for with other life. Alkahestry rewrites these rules by giving practically unlimited healing powers with apparently no cost. This pulls the focus away from the philosopher stone in the same way that Xing pulls the focus away from Amestris. Even worse than that, Alkahestry undermines the very concept of equivalent exchange by giving for free in brotherhood what in the first anime can only come through great struggle.
- Mary Sues. General Olivier Armstrong was a mary sue. I’m sorry, but in a story where the military is morally ambiguous at best and evil at worst she stuck out like a big, self-righteous thumb. So much was made how Armstrong defends the harsh northern border, but what did she really do besides sit in her fortress and blow up technologically inferior foreigners that are no real threat anyway? Armstrong got a ton of screen time, edging out those critical to the story like Ed and Mustang despite her being perhaps the least interesting character in the whole cast.
Wow, I wrote a lot more here than I planned on :/
I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me and I’m not going to try to argue with you if you believe that Brotherhood was a better show. It all comes down to taste and I’ll admit that the first anime wasn’t for everyone. By Shamballa the story was a disaster and it was coming apart long before then. The difference for me was that these flaws were superficial while Brotherhood’s ran to the core.
I take it you guys haven't delved much into the likes of Rurouni Kenshin or Yu Yu Hakusho?
edited 17th Jul '12 1:39:37 AM by CrimsonFlameKnight
Time to leave them all behind
Okay, I haven't seen either, but what would you say to the theory that both of them are Shounen fighting Manga while FMA has more world building and story telling with less regular fights?
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I disagree with you about Alkahestry being a problem in terms of healing. It alchemy has shown itself perfectly capable of healing too, so the problem for me has always been why Ed couldn't just grow himself a new arm (there already have artificial prosthetics and entire functional... bodies that functioned just like humans were grown later. Don't tell me it's not possible).
Plus technically you are getting construction for "free" so as far as those of us who are either scientists or Kyuubees are concerned you're already breaking the game so much and getting things for free. Taking that further, if whatever fuels those things (different in each anime) can be used as a power source for alchemy, then it should be a small step to fuel to beat equivalent exchange.
And finally, saving someone's life should not cost a life. Well, obviously it doesn't, it only cost Edward about a year or two.
I have to admit that I couldn't stand General Olivier Armstrong either. And I don't know why Ed put up with her. She was a huge jerk. But then so was Greed (although he did redeem himself). Perhaps the message was that you have to play along with people like this for a while? Bleh, you're a pretty terrible person if Edward shows you up in terms of humility (pre-manga conclusion that is).
Actually, in the manga, the energy came from geothermal activity/philosopher's stones under the crust of the Earth. And the stuff that made fully functioning new bodies and such were under lock and key by the military. Top secret, hush hush.
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Now as for you
Actually, alkahestry follows the same rules of equivalent exchange as well. It just takes energy from the Earth, whereas alchemy, for the longest time, took energy from the philosopher's stones underneath Central (a.k.a Father). Secondly, the brothers didn't want it because it provided free healing, they wanted it because it was specialized for healing. Unlike alchemy, which was basically built from the ground up by Father with the intentions of "lol little hoomens blow each other up".
I don't think you know what a Mary Sue is. Also, GO DIE IN A FIRE.
edited 17th Jul '12 2:47:44 AM by KSPAM
I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
I know the sources of alchemy. In the first anime, alchemy is fuelled by souls. You'd almost think you don't need a philosopher's stone if there's already souls involved.
As for the second anime/the manga, yes it doesn't actually defy thermodynamics. But clearly a pile of dirt is not worth the same thing as a sword, so it kinda still makes the whole "equivalent exchange" thing seem almost certainly wrong.
I don't know if she's a Sue, but she does tend to berate and talk down to other characters (including other main characters) quite a bit, with most people being too intimidated to stand up to her, and those that aren't immediately intimidated getting their asses kicked by her. She can even call Ed short with impunity.
I can kinda forgive that, though, just for the slack-jawed look on her face when Izumi and Sieg burst onto the scene to show her up.
edited 17th Jul '12 3:53:53 AM by RavenWilder
I've finished both. FMA is far much better due to depth, complexity, and organic character developments and intereactions.
edited 17th Jul '12 4:35:55 AM by dRoy
Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.I agree that the whole Xing thing can come off as a bit intrusive to what's supposed to be the story of Amestris, but I have no issues with the Xingese characters.
Olivier, while her attitude bugged me quite I bit when we're first introduced to her, is definatly NOT A MARY-SUE. How is a character being self-righteous, kinda bitchy, but still awesome being a Sue? She lives by "survival of the fittest", and enforces it just as much as Ed enforces Equivalent Exchange. While I DO have issues with her beating her brother so dang easily, but I can get over it.
