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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#78076: May 23rd 2024 at 3:20:58 PM

It doesn't matter to the crying thing.

Her being a princess who needs saving is whatever, I'm already of the opinion that Sonic's story would've been better if their relationship was the focus...and it wasn't just her being kidnapped repeatedly.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#78077: May 23rd 2024 at 3:34:58 PM

[up] Him saving damsels in distress completely goes against the entire point of Sonic as a character. He was made to be the anti-Mario. And while that may no longer be strictly relevant to hold against the franchise, it completely goes against Sonic's character and the series' established tone. It's like playing a Metroid game where Samus is portrayed as weak-willed, submissive, and out for a man's approval. Oh wait. Or a Fallout game where you use Nukes to progress. Oh wait, again.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 23rd 2024 at 6:37:16 AM

Once Upon A Time.
Ego-Man25 Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#78078: May 23rd 2024 at 3:41:57 PM

Okay, so maybe Sonic 06's storyhas holes. And the kinds where, even if the gameplay was good, people would still be off put by it.

Self-professed Wild Card who thinks cynicism isn't so bad.
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#78079: May 23rd 2024 at 3:48:50 PM

I used to think Project 06 was a fool's errand and that the game was too fundamentally bad to fix, while at the same time being so close to a good game. It's extremely weird to say that about a game but Sonic 06 is the uncanny valley of games. Like there is an awesome game somewhere but its wrong in just the right ways to be fucking abhorrent. But apparently Project 06 is actually pretty good, though I plan to replay the original first.

Once Upon A Time.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#78080: May 23rd 2024 at 3:52:38 PM

She doesn't need to be a princess either...

But it's good for the framing of the situation.

The point is...Sonic develops a bond with a random person and the person doesn't want to let Sonic go because they're emotionally stunted.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#78081: May 23rd 2024 at 3:57:19 PM

Yeah, that the most prominent female character in the story is basically a prop who has to be saved by the male characters and who nearly brings on the end of the world by *crying* is not the franchise’s best look from a feminist point of view.

Of course, by 2006 nobody was really looking to Sonic expecting for well written female characters.

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#78082: May 23rd 2024 at 3:58:05 PM

Would you consider SAGE to be a slight improvement?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#78083: May 23rd 2024 at 4:07:30 PM

I wonder how things would've worked out if Madonna had stayed as a character and the Naugus-looking guy was the Big Bad instead. Might've been closer to other such mascots, like Aero or Zool, or Bubsy.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#78084: May 23rd 2024 at 4:09:22 PM

Just my take, but more than anything else, the key problem with Elise is that the game asks a lot of the audience in investing in her character and never really gets around to effectively justifying that.

There's really nothing inherently awful about her, but there's also little really make her a standout character, which is a problem when a third of the game is oriented around her relationship with Sonic. Her design is something you'd see in a generic JRPG, she's not really that deep emotionally, and she lacks so little agency that rescuing her makes up the bulk of Sonic's plot. The novelty of her as a non-Eggman human having a dynamic with Sonic is about all she has going for her and even that only amounts to so much given how pat the interactions between the two end up being.

I think a lot of the backlash against Elise is one way or another connected to this. Now the design clash of her vs the rest of the cast didn't help, and much of the Western audience at the time was always going to laugh and/or cringe at their faux flirtation given the differing regional opinions on human/anthropomorphic animal romance. However, I think those problems were very exacerbated by the aforementioned failure of the game to earn its emotional moments with her. For many fans, if they weren't going to be engaged by what she does in the narrative (and the gameplay itself not being nearly strong enough at least distract from the dubious story) the only thing left to do is snicker at the visual silliness of her kissing Sonic and lament that the title spends so much time on her.

I'm reminded a bit of Adam Malkovich from Metroid Other M, another character that a game asks the audience to really take in and respect while utterly failing to make him interesting, likable, or remotely worthy to the deference Samus gives him. In both cases, the failure to effectively realize the concept of what they were going for amounts to audiences either rolling their eyes /laughing at Elise or just outright despising their existence with Adam. In her case, it's no surprise she ended up symbolizing 06 more than the likes of Silver (lucky him) because her as the bold new idea for the Sonic series that completely fails due to botched execution sums up that game so perfectly.

Edited by BorneAgain on May 23rd 2024 at 7:18:43 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#78085: May 23rd 2024 at 4:09:44 PM

I mean, female characters in Sonic in general have been much better for around a decade or so.

It’s just that back in the 2000’s things were pretty bad about it. I think that’s one of the reasons people used to gravitate towards the Archie cast.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#78086: May 23rd 2024 at 4:17:07 PM

Honestly...the format of the storybook games would work for Elise or anyone else.

There's so much dialogue during the levels and unlike Heroes, Shadow, and Nex Gen...the dialogue isn't 75% tutorializing fluff with the occasional observation.

Edited by randomness4 on May 23rd 2024 at 7:17:36 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#78087: May 23rd 2024 at 5:17:10 PM

God if 06 had been a storybook title... I probably wouldn't have gotten Black Knight. Silver linings.

mstorzil Crimson Helios Since: Nov, 2019
Crimson Helios
#78088: May 23rd 2024 at 5:29:01 PM

You imagining 06 as a storybook game is kinda amusing since... Well, I'm sure you know already.

No rain could douse the flames that burn within me!
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#78089: May 23rd 2024 at 10:45:26 PM

While obviously the execution is lacking, I actually do like the idea of how they handled the Sonelise romance in 06.

Because it's been deliberately crafted to be ambiguous and ultimately up to the player's interpretation whether Sonic reciprocates or not, but either way it's ultimately going to amount to nothing more than a fleeting moment in both their lives due to the simple fact that their lives are fundamentally incompatible.

Now if only the game had like 1 extra year to flesh out its story & gameplay.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#78090: May 24th 2024 at 5:56:04 AM

Sonic 06 was my second ever Sonic game and I played it a lot as a kid, so it is extremely nostalgic for me. I acknowledge it's flaws, but warts and all, from it's story, to it's gameplay, to it's music (ok, everyone likes the music), I love it. Nostalgia is a powerful drug. I should say I haven't played it about 10 years, I imagine if I played it again my opinion would... change.

TigerClaw Since: Oct, 2023
#78091: May 24th 2024 at 6:34:06 PM

As a classic era fan its been interesting to see the current fanbase adore the games that my generation said were the worst things that could ever happen to the franchise.

Its like what happened with the discussion surrounding the star wars prequel trilogy.

Sid-Starkiller Since: Jan, 2021
#78092: May 24th 2024 at 7:26:28 PM

What, you mean just mindlessly hating the newest thing because it's not what they grew up with? That sounds about right. And I say that as a classic fan, I just gave later games a fair chance.

Edited by Sid-Starkiller on May 24th 2024 at 10:26:41 AM

TigerClaw Since: Oct, 2023
#78093: May 24th 2024 at 10:59:15 PM

There certainly was huge portion of the Sonic player base willing to buy any game with Sonic in it and give it a 'fair' chance. As fair as you'll get with someone already in love. That's probably why Sega was willing to release Sonic 2006 in such an unpolished state.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#78094: May 25th 2024 at 2:03:55 AM

I think it's also that people begin to grow up with the new things, the 3D Sonic games, the Star Wars Prequels, so to them (including me), that is the baseline of what Sonic/Star Wars is, not 2D gameplay/the original trilogy.

Sid-Starkiller Since: Jan, 2021
#78095: May 25th 2024 at 5:27:29 AM

For some reason I've felt the urge to replay Sonic Battle recently. It's even less balanced than I remember, but collecting the skill cards is fun, and Emerl's story is neat.

Shadow presents a problem trying to fit it in canon, though.

taotruths Live Jet Reaction (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I sleep in a big bed with my wife.
Live Jet Reaction
#78096: May 25th 2024 at 6:45:19 AM

[up]the game being released after SA 2 but before heroes and Shadow makes things a head scratcher but I always thought that it’d be easy enough to slot in by just thinking that it takes place after Shadow

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#78097: May 25th 2024 at 7:03:44 AM

It is pretty interesting being a fan of the Classic era and thinking that is what Sonic is, and then realizing that people younger than you probably never touched those games, or grew up in with an entirely different gameplay standard. That doesn't make either less valid. Sega was smart to make Generations then go to Mania, Frontiers, and Superstars.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#78098: May 25th 2024 at 8:07:01 AM

[up][up], [up][up][up] Battle was made by a smaller part of Sonic Team in Japan while the bulk of the team who made Heroes was based in America at the time. My guess is the inconsistency with Shadow was just poor communications between the two sides. Probably Battle's team heard from the team in America making Heroes that they were planning to bring Shadow back, but hadn't been told the story details about Shadow having amnesia (and with how things go, maybe that hadn't even been decided until a while into Heroes' production).

Edited by KuroBaraHime on May 25th 2024 at 1:01:41 PM

ShirowShirow Dinosaur Hunter from Land of Maple Syrup (Old as dirt)
Dinosaur Hunter
#78099: May 25th 2024 at 8:38:41 AM

That was during Sonic's peak continuity days, where there will be small references to other games that happened.

After that era Sega definitely seemed to take a "This a game series about cartoon animals why are you taking it so seriously" approach which has largely ended with Sonic Frontiers.

You are not alone.
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#78100: May 25th 2024 at 8:46:49 AM

[up][up][up]Exactly. That's why I'm so glad the Sega is taking the approach of pleasing both fans by continuing both boost/3D and 2D games. All they need is a third set of games going that have the Adventure style 3D gameplay, and everyone will be happy.

One of Sonic's best strengths, and one of its biggest weaknesses, is that, as a franchise, it always changes and evolves and tries new things (overuse of Greenhill not withstanding). So everyone will have a different idea of what Sonic is, based on what they mainly played, and will understandably be annoyed if the series changes that. So I'm glad they're continuing to experiment (see Frontiers) while also continuing with what a large number of fans prefer (2D).


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