TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Go To

Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#76876: Jan 19th 2024 at 5:22:32 AM

I would like to see what Evan Stanley and Daniel Barnes could do with the games, if they get the chance to write them.

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#76877: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:12:51 AM

I wouldn't mind playing spinoffs based on characters who haven't appeared in a game for a while.

Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#76878: Jan 19th 2024 at 2:04:30 PM

And there are sure a lot of characters that haven't been seen in the franchise for years. That's why I'm so glad that Sonic Dream Team brought back Cream and Cheese.

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
TheDarkMantis Shadow Bug from Ocean of Storms Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
Shadow Bug
#76879: Jan 19th 2024 at 3:18:21 PM

Re: Why People Dislike Infinite

Infinite was unfortunately a case of all style but no substance - he's presented as an incredibly intimidating and powerful dragon of Eggman's, but at his core, he's nothing but a Psychopathic Manchild who only needed one ass-whooping from Shadow to make him completely break down into an edgelord. And he's not even an effective one either: the instant he sends Sonic and the Avatar to Null Space, they almost immediately Double Boost to get back out. Not even Eggman is impressed with him in-universe, and disposes of him to use the Phantom Ruby for the final boss.

Which is a real shame, because we could have used a villain of his caliber after really dark ones like Mephiles and Black Doom... but he ended up falling flat on his face.

Edited by TheDarkMantis on Jan 19th 2024 at 11:18:48 AM

"That we continue to persist at all is a testament to our faith in one another."
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#76880: Jan 19th 2024 at 5:36:47 PM

I'm hearing site formerly known as Twitter rumors of Hayden Christensen playing Shadow in the 3rd movie.

Edited by tclittle on Jan 19th 2024 at 7:37:17 AM

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
magnum12 Since: Aug, 2009
#76881: Jan 19th 2024 at 6:50:02 PM

Ian’s statement about Prime being after Advance 3 actually makes sense.

Reasoning: Shadow’s Composite Character of Sonic Battle and Sonic 06 becomes Fridge Brilliance Foreshadowing of this placement.

I’m hearing Chris Pratt.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#76882: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:03:20 PM

[up][up][up]That's what I was thinking was the case for people who actively dislike him.

But if that's so...

That feels to me like people were misreading the character as he was presented in the final game. Infinite's character, down to his power set, design (mask), and self-given name, is about being a facade in the most literal of senses - a false front hiding a smaller or hollow reality. He's meant to be a try-hard edgelord, because he's trying to convince others and himself of his own facade. And since he's the villain of the day, he's an obstacle the player overcomes, which means you get to prove him wrong. You spend the entire game breaking through illusions, including illusions of Infinite. The final illusion is "Infinite" himself.

I feel a vocal minority of the Infinite dislikers are people who looked at someone wearing a mask, wanted that mask to be their real face, and got mad when the mask came off. But being a false face was the point of wearing a mask in the first place. To me, Infinite's not a badly executed character. It's just that his character is not for everyone. Shadow and Charmy aren't my type of character, but I definitely wouldn't call either of them a bad character.

To me, the distinction is this:

  • Shadow was designed to "be" dark
  • Infinite was designed to "look" dark

But of course, all of this is my interpretation.


[up]I don't know where you're coming up with Composite Character stuff about Shadow, but Ian wasn't saying it came directly after Advance 3, or anything specific about when it takes place. He was saying "The show uses a scene that ONLY took place in Advance 3, so it can't have happened before that game." Which anyone who watched that scene and knew the story of that game could figure out. He was very clear about this.

This actually reminds me of a joke: "A time traveler's time machine breaks down, so

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jan 19th 2024 at 9:36:05 AM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76883: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:34:55 PM

[up] I'm going to be frank with you and tell you the truth.

I fucking hated the Hueco Mundo arc of Bleach. I spent like half an hour complaining with a friend who was dissapointed of Bleach years ago, and I vented my annoyance at Ulquiorra, a character I found geniunely pretentious and void of any sort of charisma or interesting traits despite the potential for it.

That's Infinite. You can analyze him, add explanations or readings to the character of how he is a facade, of how he had a Fatal Flaw that cost him the victory, or whatever. The problem is that Infinite is just *boring*, lame, and disappointing, with nothing interesting going on in the story in terms of characterization or character dynamics with the established cast. Add how the story is boring as well with the cast and there is nothing there.

Dislike IDW all you want, but I found Starline and Surge interesting because they have a dynamic with a character. Starline and his obsessive devotion to Eggman, Surge and her hatred of Sonic. Infinite doesn't even have that, his relationship with Eggman doesn't bring out anything interesting about Eggman other than a lame fanservice. Look! Eggman is fully in control, he is not betrayed and you have a third Nega Wisp machine, DO YOU RIKE IT?; Infinite doesn't do anything interesting to Sonic either, as Sonic never takes him seriously; and the Shadow relationship is just an excuse to have Shadow be involved in the DLC, otherwise Infinite and Shadow's relationship is void.

This is also why I find Sage and The End to be an improvement over him. Sage brings out a new side of Eggman, and The End managed to "kill" Sonic while tricking him despite how simplistic that moon is.

Rant over I guess. And don't expect Sega to ever rewrite the character. If he ever returns, he will remain the same character. You can see that the only popularity Infinite has is in a weird fan character named "Zero" and those background extras of the Jackal Squad that are dead.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jan 19th 2024 at 7:36:08 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#76884: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:39:10 PM

What is the part of Prime that means it has to be set after Advance 3? I know it's blink-and-you'll-miss-it, and apparently I blinked.

Edited by WillKeaton on Jan 19th 2024 at 8:40:31 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#76885: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:39:40 PM

[up]Season 3 uses a montage including a scene recounting the second boss battle of Advance 3. We know it can only be at that point of time, and it can't be a case of "Eggman reused his designs", because this design visibly includes Gemerl, a character who was created in that game and defected before it was over, and has canonically never been integrated into one of Eggman's boss designs again, outside of at the end of the Metal Virus arc in IDW, and that was a different boss design (a giant version of that also integrated Omega).

[up][up]

Ulquiorra, a character I found geniunely pretentious and void of any sort of charisma

Same. However, with both Ulquiorra and Infinite, our subjective opinions are not objective facts, so...

or interesting traits despite the potential for it.

That's Infinite. You can analyze him, add explanations or readings to the character of how he is a facade, of how he had a Fatal Flaw that cost him the victory, or whatever. The problem is that Infinite is just *boring*, lame, and disappointing, with nothing interesting going on in the story in terms of characterization or character dynamics with the established cast. Add how the story is boring as well with the cast and there is nothing there.

...no matter how firmly you say something, that's not a definitive consensus for everyone. That's just how you feel. You know damn well that plenty of people actually find Ulqiorra interesting. He's one of the most liked characters in that series.

[up][up][up]Because I stopped editing the above post to reply to a comment that came afterwards, I accidentally stumbled upon a third level of this joke.

  1. The actual joke was "A time traveler's machine breaks and he gets stuck in a random time. He asks a random person what year it is, and they say 345 B.C."
    • explaining the relevance to this Sonic discussion: The fact that they said "B.C. (before Christ)" says a LOT. The exact year is no longer as important, because the present time is "after something fucked up the timeline."
  2. The Doctor Who usage was this. It's actually both funny and really tragic.
    • explanation and relevance: Two men, one from the future, and one from the past, are pulled to a random point in time via time travel. The one from the future reveals that he's from the future, by explaining that he's aware of something that's in the present day for the one in the past. But you only call something World War One if there's at least a World War Two. The tragedy is revealing that the biggest war ever is only the biggest war to that point, and that humanity will keep fighting each other to such an extent that "The War to End All Wars" loses its then-current name.
  3. The meta level is this:
    • A time traveler's time machine breaks down, so... when did he get stuck?
    • explanation and relevance: Some time after the machine broke down.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jan 19th 2024 at 10:41:05 AM

chino514 (Apprentice)
#76886: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:41:59 PM

Probably the inclusion of Advance 3 spritework in Season 3's third episode

Still disappointed they didn't put the "You're going to pay for this!" line in some form.

Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#76887: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:46:07 PM

But the thing about Infinite is that if SEGA does decide to bring him back, then it's possible that his character might change for the better if put in the right hands. I mean, look at how the Deadly Six were being written in the IDW comics compared to how they were written in the games. The Deadly Six are some of the most hated villains in the Sonic franchise and yet, when they came to the IDW comics, they were some of the most interesting villains in the comics. So, if they wanted Infinite to be more threatening in later games, it really depends on who's writing him this time around and whether or not SEGA wants to change up Infinite's character.

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76888: Jan 19th 2024 at 7:51:54 PM

[up][up][up] I am aware, these are strictly my feelings on the matter. I know Ulquiorra is popular, and somehow, Infinite is still rather popular despite how dissapointing he is.

[up] There is a possibility, minimun as it is, that a better writer could write a decent Infinite. However, this writer would have to stick strictly with what is established about the character, as that is how Sonic Team allows the IDW staff to write the characters. Meaning, if Infinite returns, he would still be similar to what Forces established.

Sonic Team can make exceptions but only with minor characters, hence why Mecha Sonic and Mecha Knuckles were revamped for IDW.

But who knows. Toyoda wrote in the Isekai stories that Infinite lost his Phantom Ruby, and he was desperate to obtain's Eggman's...but he vanished, appearently because he was an illusion, maybe. Toyoda says Infinite's vague fate is part of his charm.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jan 19th 2024 at 7:55:00 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#76889: Jan 19th 2024 at 8:01:20 PM

Regarding the lack of dynamics. I would argue that is technically false. Infinite does have a something resembling a dynamic. It just that it is with the build-a-furry charterer, which by natures of customizable silent protagonist means that they have to be blank slates and that means said dynamic has to be generic as a result.

Also his weakness complex that spawn from Shadow kicking his ass 16 ways to Sunday, but that is as underdeveloped as everything else about him or forces as a game.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#76890: Jan 19th 2024 at 8:13:54 PM

I'd argue that the brief Orbot and Cubot cameo means Prime has to take place after colors, but nothing about that game proves it was their first appearance chronologically, and Orbot but white appears in Unleashed.

Edited by Joshbones on Jan 19th 2024 at 8:14:38 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#76891: Jan 19th 2024 at 8:21:33 PM

[up]Yeah, so as you acknowledged, Orbot and Cubot are a special case. The appearance of Orbot and Cubot is meaningless, precisely because of how Cubot (and to a lesser extent Orbot) were introduced in a case of Remember the New Guy? We know from their own dialog that Orbot and Cubot have been around for adventures before Colors. So any appearance with them doesn't mean it takes place after Colors, it means it takes place after their first appearance. But we have no idea when that is, so that isn't useful info.

And Generations only tells us that Colors itself is after stages in Generations that came before it, if we assume Generations' stages are in chronological order, but it still doesn't tell us when Orbot and Cubot first appeared.

[up][up]He'd also have a dynamic with Tails if Tails was actually playable instead of bringing back Classic Sonic, but that's my gripe with the game. Also, I agree that "underdeveloped" is a good way to put it.


Infinite's dynamic with Sonic is ironically hilarious to me.

  • Infinite wants to be seen as strong.
  • Infinite beats one of the strongest characters.
  • That character could not give less of a shit about their personal win-loss record.
  • Infinite still doesn't get what he wanted.

It reminds me of that scene in DragonBallZ Abridged where Goku gives up against Cell, or (MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE SERIES) that scene in Season Four of The Good Place where Michael gives up against Shawn.

For added irony and DBZ connection, Infinite's eventual defeat mirror's Cell's: The evil Doctor Eggman/Gero's previous discarded ultimate android weapon Omega/Android 16 returns for a moment of relevance and reinforces the heroes. Realizing he's outmatched, and no longer feared, Infinite/Cell decides to rage quit and take out everyone in a giant false sun/explosion, but it gets teleported away. After taking time to recharge, Infinite/Cell then comes back to take on the foe he acknowledges. Then the defining moment of their character development, The Avatar/Gohan finally overcomes their fear/fear and anger, and takes down Infinite/Cell, with teamwork with Sonic/Goku, who spent the arc/game bringing out the willpower in him all along.

And back on my prior point, I just rewatched the final vs Infinite battle. Sonic's taunts are specifically about Infinite hiding behind a mask:

  • "Here lies the masked clown"
  • "Your mask can't hide how sad and lonely you are"

And then the last thing he hears is Sonic hammer home how unimportant physical power, the thing Infinite cares so much about, is to him. Then saying "The things that can't be defeated are heart, soul, and the bonds of friendship." (Granted, Infinite's actual experience with the Jackal Squad vs Shadow disproves this completely.)

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jan 19th 2024 at 11:43:41 AM

Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#76892: Jan 19th 2024 at 11:09:21 PM

Sonic Forces wasn't solely done by Eitaro Toyoda, not to mention that he likely did primarily the translation work alongside Japanese writer Makoto Goya.

The English version, which is likely the "main" script, was done by Warren Graff and Ken Pontac.

And regardless, saying that Infinite was the only poorly written character of Forces is just... not accurate. If he's doing a good job in the calendar stories but a poor job in Forces, it probably means that there's external factors beyond just his raw skill.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76893: Jan 20th 2024 at 6:26:18 AM

Forces was Japanese written. Warren Graff and Ken Pontac only did the localization.The only story to their name to be completely theirs is Lost World (and maybe Generations, but this last game is vague about it)

Toyoda script of Episode Shadow is the original.

[up][up] It doesn't really disprove anything because Infinite's relationship with his squad is nondescript. The fandom THINKS Infinite was friends with his squad, but considering his personality, it's likely those were just his cronies/mooks. No different from Eggman's relationships with whoever he is working during that week.

Infinite wasn't mad about theirs deaths, he was pissed off because of his broken ego.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jan 20th 2024 at 6:27:52 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#76894: Jan 20th 2024 at 6:49:02 AM

I'm hearing site formerly known as Twitter rumors of Hayden Christensen playing Shadow in the 3rd movie.

I saw that too. Would be absolutely hilarious if true, its the sorta gag that writes itself.

Are explosions science?
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#76895: Jan 20th 2024 at 7:01:56 AM

Forces was basically written like this:

  1. Goya and Toyoda wrote the original Japanese script.
  2. Translators at SoA translated that script into English to hand off to Pontac and Graff.
  3. Pontac and Graff rewrote it into the final English script, which the cutscenes were animated off of.
  4. That English script was translated into Japanese by translators at SoJ to hand back to Goya and Toyoda.
  5. Goya and Toyoda rewrote that script into the final Japanese script, which has to stick to how the cutscenes are animated.

A very simple and straight-forward process, I know.

mstorzil Crimson Helios Since: Nov, 2019
Crimson Helios
#76896: Jan 20th 2024 at 5:33:44 PM

There's actually something that's been on my mind ever since I saw a Youtube poll yesterday. Channel Pup posted a poll on the community page for best Classic series anime (and yes, he did post one for the modern series as well today, though for whatever reason he included Boom) and I saw so many comments where people took issue with how melodramatic Satam was and why they prefer Adventures. My question is, just exactly how melodramatic are we actually speaking? Sonic 06 level? Granted, the melodrama was the least of that game's problems. Also, is it simply because it was melodramatic, or was it poorly done?

No rain could douse the flames that burn within me!
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#76897: Jan 20th 2024 at 5:57:53 PM

[up][up] That's still so fucked up.

Forces was written by the Japanese writers, rewritten by the duo who just do not write Sonic well, and then the original writers have to fix the problems in the story as best they can while being more restricted than what the English duo were (and whatever changes they make are only present in the Japanese version on top of that).

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#76898: Jan 20th 2024 at 8:30:50 PM

[up][up][up]by "rewritten," do you mean touched up and edited, or was anything significantly changed before the animation?

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#76899: Jan 20th 2024 at 8:56:58 PM

I can't really say since I don't think there's been any public statements explaining in detail what exactly any particular person wrote. The only thing like that I know is that Goya was mostly the one who wrote the original script for the main story, Toyoda helped and did most of the work on the final rewrite, and Toyoda wrote Episode Shadow.

I don't think we have a way of knowing what exactly Pontac and Graff changed or added. All I can say it's safe to assume they're the ones who wrote any jokes in the game, and anything that got changed in the final Japanese script is probably because of something they changed or added from the original script.

taotruths Live Jet Reaction (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I sleep in a big bed with my wife.
Live Jet Reaction
#76900: Jan 20th 2024 at 9:29:46 PM

Been playing a lot of Sonic Dream Team again to go for the 100% on it, it's really an addictive experience that gets you trying out different stuff and experiment. Though I will say hunting down those blue coins are a bit of a to do.

Either way - I got all red rings and 101 orbs!

The less said about slowly accruing points for Tails' Challenges the better as well, but you gotta keep players paying to play i guess.

Edited by taotruths on Jan 20th 2024 at 9:30:08 AM


Total posts: 84,033
Top