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mstorzil Crimson Helios Since: Nov, 2019
Crimson Helios
#76076: Oct 18th 2023 at 9:35:50 PM

Ok, after watching Sam fight the Dragon I'm getting some Doomsday Zone vibes. I swear, ring management in a Super Sonic fight never looked so bad before with the exception of HD Time Eater and maybe SD Perfect Dark Gaia. Oh, and the Master King Trial of course.

No rain could douse the flames that burn within me!
Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#76077: Oct 18th 2023 at 10:06:29 PM

This game had at least 19 composers.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76078: Oct 18th 2023 at 10:34:18 PM

It really shows.

In a bad way.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#76079: Oct 18th 2023 at 10:56:30 PM

Fang’s theme just loops in a weird way, it’s distracting.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Vertigo_High Since: May, 2010
#76080: Oct 19th 2023 at 12:28:05 AM

Yeah some composers put in a lot more work than others.

The metal sonic fight isn't that luck based? And phase 2 is easier than phase 1. I thought it was a cool fight, challenging but actually not that bad. When he does the two lasers the scrolling actually slows down. Once you realize that it becomes easier to dodge the lasers cause that's what was messing me up hard at first.

You know what fight gives me a lot of trouble? The freakin pterodactyl in frozen factory, especially on Trip's run where it becomes That One Boss.

Both of Egg Fortress' fights are really difficult. But nah, they're not on king coco's trial. No way lol.

I might pick up wonder since people said it feels like a sequel to super mario world(that's the yoshi one, right?) which was my favorite 2D mario, but ngl I've learned to never take scores for 1st party Nintendo games at face value as they always seem inflated.

Edited by Vertigo_High on Oct 19th 2023 at 12:36:18 PM

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#76081: Oct 19th 2023 at 3:03:40 AM

What is it about Fang as final boss that makes it so difficult?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#76082: Oct 19th 2023 at 3:09:02 AM

[up]I haven't got there myself yet, but from what I hear there are many one-hit kill moves, I guess some in particular being extra hard to predict and dodge.

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lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#76083: Oct 19th 2023 at 3:25:53 AM

[up] That does sound difficult D: My greatest fear in 2D Sonic games is bring crushed cause not even Hyper Sonic can survive that!

...I just realized that's how some of the TITANS are able to kill Super Sonic in Frontiers.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Vertigo_High Since: May, 2010
#76084: Oct 19th 2023 at 5:05:57 AM

Half his moveset are OHK Os. They're actually fairly telegraphed and not that hard to avoid if you know how(tbh he's easier to avoid than Eggman), thing is the learning process is tedious due to how long the fight is and he requires some near perfect play as one mistake can mean instant death.

The good news is, once you learn how to beat him you're gonna be able to do it well, he's very much a "git gud" kind of boss. Also his instant kill lasers 1st phase can be dealt with by simply getting behind him lol.

I hate crush kills as well, they are my bane. So you can probably guess my feelings on Press factory zone lol.

Edited by Vertigo_High on Oct 19th 2023 at 5:08:15 AM

neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#76085: Oct 19th 2023 at 6:47:16 AM

Even with the skills of the versions of him throughout Sonic Media, I never thought of Nack as final boss material.

"May your heart be your guiding key"
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#76086: Oct 19th 2023 at 6:58:46 AM

[up] He's only the final boss for one character but he absolutely has it coming.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
VapourSoulOS Herald of Lunar Tierce from You really expect me to know that? Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Herald of Lunar Tierce
#76087: Oct 19th 2023 at 7:50:29 AM

[up] So will Nack ever get a Super form in future Sonic games?

"Punishment is not the answer. Punishment is easy. It's lazy. Redemption is hard. Redemption makes you work."-Skulduggery Pleasant
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#76088: Oct 19th 2023 at 8:28:10 AM

[up]Well, there's no precedent in the games for a non-supernatural, non-robot villain going super, but there's nothing preventing it.

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Negaman Since: Aug, 2017
#76089: Oct 19th 2023 at 8:50:57 AM

True Final Boss FINALLY beaten. Good lord, ring management was a bane in this one.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#76090: Oct 19th 2023 at 10:02:05 AM

[up][up] I forget, do Mighty and Ray have Super forms too?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#76091: Oct 19th 2023 at 10:04:31 AM

In Mania Plus, yes. But I'm not sure how much that counts? I don't really know (or care) about Sonic continuity unless a game is explicitly referencing older games.

Edited by diddyknux on Oct 19th 2023 at 12:04:49 PM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76092: Oct 19th 2023 at 10:44:21 AM

It is amusing.

Most of the extreme difficulty in the games are rather justified in-game. Yet I can't help but laugh that the supposed "Eggman greatest creation and Sonic's most formidable foe" Infinite was a piss in the park compared with Fang.

FUCKING.FANG.

Every day, I have new material to laugh at Infinite.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#76093: Oct 19th 2023 at 11:08:35 AM

Poor Infinite always finite, always the weakass Memetic Loser.

Good thing the Phantom Ruby was wasted on him.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76094: Oct 19th 2023 at 11:14:23 AM

The metal sonic fight isn't that luck based?

It really is.

In the first and second phases, you have an extremely small window to hit him after he attacks, which is fairly easy to handle in the first phase but in the second phase means the ability the player has to damage him can swing from challenging to almost impossible depending entirely on what terrain the game decides to give you, as the player has very little time to prepare for and maneuver the terrain, and doing so typically leaves the player unable to reach him in time.

You can, technically, hit him while he charges, but the hurtbox vs hitbox for that is extremely unclear - after about a dozen attempts I couldn’t find a reliable weakspot or timing for doing so.

There’s also the same issue with the previous Fang battle that depending on where you get his it can be difficult to recover your rings, because they don’t collect at the far end of the screen.

It’s the same problem the running battles had in Sonic Advance 2. You can account for the boss’ movements, but not for the sudden changes in elevation and a simple unlucky moment can be devastating depending on things the player can’t prepare for (or be trivialized by a particularly lucky moment), making a simple fight much more frustrating. At the very least, the camera ought to have to been pulled back a lot more.

And that’s all before the third phase, where he legitimately has a “can randomly kill you” move.

There’s a segment where he turns platforms into enemies at random. The platforms he picks at are random, and which enemies (and thus how they move after) they become is random, and he does this extremely quickly, leading to - at least for me - not uncommon situations where he turns a platform in front of you into an enemy that moves in such a way you can’t shift your momentum in time to account for it. If you’re already in the middle of a jump when this happens (likely, as that phase requires constant jumping) it can be instant death with no ability to prevent it.

The only reliable means of dealing with that I could find was just “be Tails (or Knuckles, I guess),” so you can just fly over the whole phase. Amy probably would have a much better time with the first phase, as well.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 19th 2023 at 11:30:45 AM

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#76095: Oct 19th 2023 at 11:40:33 AM

Or you can also be Super for the fight and just not worry about anything.

The rocket segment before the fight gives you more than enough rings for it.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76096: Oct 19th 2023 at 11:50:56 AM

Ok...

What if you don't have all the emeralds at that point?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Negaman Since: Aug, 2017
#76097: Oct 19th 2023 at 11:59:59 AM

[up]

If you don't then make sure they're low when they're tracking you for the charge and make to hit them from behind like Knuckles in 3&K.

The bots can be knocked toward Eggman in the second phase.

When he's behind the floor and destroying it, just jump to hit him or use avatar if you're unsure about your jumping.

For the floor breaking/transforming lasers, just make sure you're behind when it's ahead or ahead when it's behind.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76098: Oct 19th 2023 at 12:15:32 PM

If you don't then make sure they're low when they're tracking you for the charge and make to hit them from behind like Knuckles in 3&K.

The random shifts in terrain and elevation, combined with the very small window of attack opportunity, make doing this consistently more a matter of the game’s generosity than the player’s control.

The bots can be knocked toward Eggman in the second phase.

When he's behind the floor and destroying it, just jump to hit him or use avatar if you're unsure about your jumping.

The way bosses are done in this game, getting hit in one attack only progresses them to the next attack (you can’t, or can only rarely, but a boss more than once in the same attack), so the fact that his other attacks have means of being hit doesn’t do anything to address the problem.

You’re still going to end up having to deal with the random phase regardless.

For the floor breaking/transforming lasers, just make sure you're behind when it's ahead or ahead when it's behind.

The boss can remove a platform directly in front of you, requiring you to jump, and the while you’re in the air remove another platform beneath you that you are falling towards, which can easily be unavoidable death. If you’re caught in some other animation for whatever reason, the same problem applies.

Where you are on the screen when this is happening doesn’t prevent that from being a problem.

The idea is that you’re supposed to be able to bounce off the badnik created by the attack, but since which badnik created is random (one of three, I think) all of whom move differently, this isn’t reliable to account for. It’s a matter of luck whether you survive it or not.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 19th 2023 at 1:14:14 AM

Vertigo_High Since: May, 2010
#76099: Oct 19th 2023 at 1:40:30 PM

I still don't think it's that bad and the running battle sin this game on average are less demanding than the SA 2 onces as it scrolls slower and doesn't drop your speed nearly as bad when you jump or get hit. Use your emerald powers for the first two phases and the giant phase is the easiest part of the battle as you can knock the minions into him for damage too. AFAIK the actual lasers don't even hurt you, it's the sparks on the ground that do. Easiest way to do it is to stay towards the center of them(so you get time to react to the terrain and time your jumps as they cross. I find the hardest part to dodge to be his electric balls in the beginning tbh.

Okay how do you fight the secret boss? I don't know how to hurt him after he stops doing the meteors?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76100: Oct 19th 2023 at 2:18:23 PM

I mean, the lasers in phase two were never the problem. It’s making contact with him afterwards. The second phase can last *forever* because whether he’s hittable after attacking is basically a matter of luck.

The stage the problematic attack is the giant robot phase. And I’m contrast, being able to damage him in that phase was never the problem there. The two portions actually have entirely opposite problems, funnily enough.

I think if you have to abuse the emerald powers the player might not have because the boss’ design doesn’t well accommodate fighting without them lol (I too abused powers to get past the first two phases after getting tired of spending several minutes waiting for an opening), that’s probably a good sign that it could’ve been designed better.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 19th 2023 at 2:23:41 AM


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