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CountofBleck Starting to believe in himself from New Wirral (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Starting to believe in himself
#74851: Jul 11th 2023 at 11:31:42 AM

Tails was 8 according a manual a bazillion years ago; we know he's young but I wouldnt slap numbers on anybody with certainty.

KaoticKanine from Vania of Pencils Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#74852: Jul 11th 2023 at 11:50:01 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#74853: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:00:18 PM

Are we really doing this again?

Tails (...usually) has a lot more emotional maturity than Charmy and Cream. Amy would definitely do other stuff with Cream (and maybe Vanilla and Big) for her birthday. And of course the bee is a Memetic Loser.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#74854: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:02:30 PM

We been over this, man. Tails has a license to fly a plane and have multiple workshops, he counts as an adult.

The benefits of having no legal guardian.

That and the game was already over-crowded.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
mstorzil Crimson Helios Since: Nov, 2019
Crimson Helios
#74855: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:06:58 PM

[up] 5

Long story short, what's canon?

Sega/ whoever is answering "Well here's how it works, even if it makes no sense"

Pariah "We don't know, there is no canon"

Though I will say, as someone who never really questioned the whole "Different dimension" thing from Forces, it's interesting even the Japanese translation claims the same thing.

Edited by mstorzil on Jul 11th 2023 at 12:07:14 PM

No rain could douse the flames that burn within me!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74856: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:11:33 PM

Tails shows up because he's a main character, Cream and Charmy are not main characters, so therefore they don't. Pretty simple :V

As for the "main cast," for years Sega just used whoever the fuck they felt like, with Sonic and Eggman being the only recurring characters. But nowadays they seem to be promoting Sonic, Tails, Amy and Knuckles as "the main group" to the point of retconning Classic material so that Amy was always part of the group as opposed to being an outsider.

Only additional character would probably qualify would probably be Shadow as he's the only character they even bother promoting in addition to the other four, but that seems mostly limited to promotional material as he's still mostly a solo-act nowadays.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 11th 2023 at 3:12:10 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#74857: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:17:36 PM

But Sonic already had a loose continuity since 2003 with Sonic Battle doing its own thing, ignoring Heroes; and 06 did its own thing with Blaze, ignoring Rush; nevermind the Sonic Riders series, where Jet was a promoted character in other games.

Hell, Sonic X shows how loose Sega took the canon when it only took the modern Sonic material and ignored everything from Classic.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74858: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:23:30 PM

Which makes it extra funny that Sega hired people to desperately piece together something that they couldn't give less than a shit about.

tldr of Pariah's video: There is no fucking canon no matter how many times they tell you otherwise and fans need to relax about it.

What there is is a brand image that Sega wants to promote and changes the series into that specific image regardless if it contradicts or is at odds with what they've established.

Like I brought up last page, Amy was just a normal girl who didn't have the same capabilities as Sonic, hence why it was easier for her to be kidnapped by Eggman, which stuck mostly in Adventure where she couldn't roll or wasn't fast.

But after a while where Amy was promoted to being a major character, Sega shifted her role where now she can do everything Sonic can do so that she can better integrate with the group between her, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and retconned her Classic incarnation to boot.

That's what it is, a brand image. A brand image that can and will change at any given time.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 11th 2023 at 3:27:13 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#74859: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:24:48 PM

[up]x2 and x4: Battle didn't ignore Heroes, it just handwaved away the Gamma/Omega/Chaos Gammma thing since it wasn't really important. Battle was meant to connect to the Adventure games first and foremost. In any case, this is another discussion we've had a couple months ago. Every mainline Sonic game, and some that aren't, has referenced specific characters or events in at least one prior game as being canon. There is a consistent throughline, whether people want to see it or not.

Also, Origins didn't change much about Amy: she has always had some abilities and willingness to be involved in events, even with her old design, especially since Drift and Fighters. the only difference is she literally couldn't physically keep up with the main trio's speed or strength until she grew into her role a bit more.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jul 11th 2023 at 2:35:41 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74860: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:28:59 PM

Battle contradicts Heroes in the sense that Shadow was supposed to have Amnesia at that point, but just doesn't because someone on the staff probably never looked at Heroes' script.

[up] The general point is that the canon is very loose and flimsy and you shouldn't obsess so much about it.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 11th 2023 at 3:30:08 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KaoticKanine from Vania of Pencils Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#74862: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:36:02 PM

Are we really doing this again?
Yes, we are. The topic became relevant again, and I'm gonna say my thoughts that went unchanged. And besides that, discussions in this forum always cycles around. Watch, in a few weeks or even a month, we'll be talking about Unleashed's merits as a game.

Tails (...usually) has a lot more emotional maturity than Charmy and Cream. Amy would definitely do other stuff with Cream (and maybe Vanilla and Big) for her birthday. And of course the bee is a Memetic Loser.
Cream isn't that far off from Tails in terms of emotional maturity. She started off as the "calm and grounded" foil to Amy, and was able to convey to Emerl what 'sadness' is. Cream would absolutely handle a Murder Mystery Party, which is entirely make-believe anyway (events of the game notwithstanding).

I'll grant you about Charmy, though he is technically employed as a private detective. Really, the only concern with bringing Charmy to a Murder Mystery Party is making sure he doesn't spoil the fun and stuff.

That and the game was already over-crowded.
Fair enough there. Though I'd argue that Shadow and Rouge didn't make the most sense for the game. Fan popularity aside, Shadow is not the type to attend parties or any social activity, let's be real. I guess Amy is a special case for him, but still. And Rouge...? Freaking Battle and X showcased Amy and Rouge to be rivals at best. And while IDW portrays the two as more amicable with each other, more than a few moments had Amy be very wary of Rouge and her motives. So, not exactly someone Amy would invite to her birthday party, especially over her sister-like best friend.

Edited by KaoticKanine on Jul 11th 2023 at 3:37:24 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74863: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:36:20 PM

[up][up]I don't really care if you take the canon seriously or not, I'm just pointing out that Sega don't really take it as seriously as the fanbase does. There's nothing to "prove" here.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 11th 2023 at 3:36:39 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#74864: Jul 11th 2023 at 12:43:06 PM

SEGA doesn't introduce enough recurring elements for anything regarding Canon to actually matter.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#74865: Jul 11th 2023 at 1:05:46 PM

Battle has Rouge talk about Omega in it, so we know they weren't ignoring heroes. It's just that they couldn't have predicted Shadow would get a whole game about his memories afterwards.

Well, maybe they could have, these games were all in production at the same time, right?

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#74866: Jul 11th 2023 at 1:24:14 PM

Heroes and Battle were made at the same time by two different teams, in fact Battle came out a couple week before Heroes did. Heroes was made by the main team which was stationed in America at the time that made SA2 and the Gamecube games, while Battle was made by a team stationed in Japan that coordinated the GBA spin-offs. Probably the two teams were coordinated enough for Battle's staff to know that Shadow was coming back in Heroes but not that he was going to be written as having amnesia.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#74867: Jul 11th 2023 at 1:45:01 PM

On the subject of the importance or "main character-ness" of the cast, I think they rank something like this.

  1. Sonic and Eggman (the main hero and main villain)
  2. Tails (Sonic's sidekick/best friend)
  3. Knuckles and Amy (Sonic's rival-friend and love interest, the other central characters along with Tails)
  4. Shadow (Sonic's main "rival")
  5. Rouge (the most frequently reoccurring side character, also kind of Shadow's sidekick/best friend and kind of Knuckle's rival)
  6. Metal Sonic (Sonic's other "rival")
  7. Blaze and Silver (popular side characters that were treated like main characters in the past, but don't get to appear much outside spin-offs)
  8. Omega, Vector, Espio, and Charmy (the next most reoccurring side characters - although Charmy sometimes gets left out)
  9. Cream and Big (side characters who sometimes show up and are treated more like civvies)
  10. Eggman Nega, the Zetis, and Orbot & Cubot (side villains or Eggman-adjectent characters who have made multiple appearances but feel like they could easily just disappear - already mostly disappeared in the case of Nega)
  11. Ray, Mighty, Fang, Jet, Wave, Storm, and Sticks (reoccurring characters who so far are stuck only appearing in certain sub-series)
  12. Bean, Bark, Honey, Tikal & Chaos, Vanilla, Emerl/Gemerl, and Marine (characters who are basically one-offs but Sonic Team and fans remember them enough that reappearing doesn't feel too far-fetched)

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#74868: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:08:11 PM

I'd say Orbot and Cubot are somewhere near Rouge, tbh.

SoaringStarman Since: Jul, 2023
#74869: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:12:13 PM

[up][up]Hmm, so Vector could be more of a major character than Cream then. Also interesting.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74870: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:27:51 PM

That's not saying much given neither show up often. If I personally had to break it down into something simpler.

Sonic and Eggman are pretty self-explanatory.

Tails is basically joined to Sonic's hip, and he's the only character to survive the "exodus." Orbot and Cubot technically go here too, but they suck and I don't like them :V

Knuckles and Amy are generally used when you actually wanna have a rounded team, but are generally passed over for the Sonic & Tails duo.

Shadow almost always shows up due to his popularity nowadays, but doesn't play much of a role. Pretty blatant case of Wolverine Publicity.

And then everyone else just kind of exists most of the time. Once upon a time, Rouge and Cream were prominent enough to have their own stories in games like Battle and play important supporting roles, but that has passed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Grounder Main Character Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Main Character
#74871: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:38:47 PM

Cream's problem is that she's boring, and Yamato Nadeshiko has no place in Sonic.

Rouge's problem is a combo of "ew, boobies" and being a government agent/merc for a day job, as much as Sega has liked to pretend that she's not.

Their time in the spotlight is over, likely permanently, though Cream has it infinitely worse than Rouge.

Edited by Grounder on Jul 11th 2023 at 2:45:27 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74872: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:47:14 PM

You're gonna make Kaotic go on another rant at this point :V

I wouldn't say Cream is "boring" so much as the writers just never had much of an interest her OR, they just couldn't find a place for her to fit into the group dynamics. Same with Rouge

It's a problem a lot of Sonic characters have where once Sega decided that the entire franchise has to revolve around Sonic and only Sonic, there isn't much room for any other character unless they have some specific relationship to Sonic in some way.

And there's already kind of pseudo-Five-Man Band thing going on; Tails, Amy, Knuckles and Shadow already fill range of: best friend/sidekicks/rivals/love interests etc et.

If Sega weren't boring, they'd swap those characters out every now and then to keep things fresh, but Branding™

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 11th 2023 at 5:47:25 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Grounder Main Character Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Main Character
#74873: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:53:27 PM

[up]They absolutely would have dropped Shadow too if his fanbase wasn't so rabid about him.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74874: Jul 11th 2023 at 2:55:35 PM

Naw because Iizuka co-created him, no way he would ever drop a character he had a hand in creating. Everyone else can get fucked though.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 11th 2023 at 5:56:04 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74875: Jul 11th 2023 at 3:18:07 PM

For main characters, you have to think "who are the characters Sonic Team actually uses and considers essential enough to commonly catch up on."

To which the list for the good guys is Sonic and Tails as main characters, Knuckles as a common third and Amy on the rise as an intended fourth - and it looks like Sonic Team intends these four to be the main cast going forward overall - plus Shadow often used as the Hero of Another Story (he's starting to turn into Sonic's answer to Meta Knight, really). And for the bad guys, it's basically Eggman, Orbot and Cubot.

Maybe Sage, but Sage just had her first appearance and we can only really guess about what Sonic Team's plans for her are. And as much as I love Metal Sonic, Sonic Team basically never uses him. Rouge... I dunno, Prime aside, when's the last time she had a line in anything that wasn't a spinoff? Was she in Forces?

Everyone else are either supporting characer or arc characters who are main character but only in very specific stories or spinoffs (a la, the Babylon Rogues being the primary antagonists of the Riders series, but having no presence elsewhere).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 11th 2023 at 3:19:22 AM


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