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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#74701: Jul 5th 2023 at 5:44:55 PM

It is pretty simple: To the lay person, Sonic's name is the title, so he's the main character. The main character should have an arc and character development.

So, Sonic gets arcs.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74702: Jul 5th 2023 at 6:19:16 PM

It honestly helps characters like Shadow too since they can actually make up for any flaws Sonic has.

That's how it's supposed to work, but Sega never saw it that way...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#74703: Jul 5th 2023 at 6:36:24 PM

To be fair, Sonic was mostly likely meant to be seen as a flat character ala Mario or Goku.

"Mai waifu."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74704: Jul 5th 2023 at 7:05:27 PM

Goku is allowed to be flawed and fail.

Sonic isn't.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#74705: Jul 5th 2023 at 7:07:29 PM

It is a deal breaker.

Sonic has enough actual flaws that it wouldn't be a problem, but any of Sonic's negative character traits are literally never used.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74706: Jul 5th 2023 at 7:32:32 PM

Traits such as?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#74707: Jul 5th 2023 at 7:39:38 PM

Impatience, recklessness, easily triggered temper...

Stuff like that is enough.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#74708: Jul 5th 2023 at 7:47:44 PM

Since it' central to this conversation, the flaw we're talking about is the thing he did during the fight with the crystal, where he shattered it, right? If I recall correctly, Sonic saw Eggman was going to get this strange crystal, so Sonic smashed it, even though he didn't know what that would lead to.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#74709: Jul 5th 2023 at 7:55:05 PM

Oh, now I'm remembering something Pariah said and I'm annoyed by it.

Anyway: Japan treats Sonic as an Invincible Hero, a Flat Character (according to Robert Mckee, or Totally Not Mark), basically "he gets no development, but somebody else does thanks to him). America since 2010 has portrayed him as somewhat flawed (Lost World; Sonic Boom, where he is a sitcom character, and the movies and Prime where he is a hiperactive bafoon). Even Flynn potrays him as flawed, despite IDW Sonic and Frontiers Sonic being Ideal Heroes.

That just raises the question on why Western Heroes aren't paragons or virtue...then I remember Western culture invented the trite "Mary Sue" term and everybody hates Superman and characters like him. So that affected Sonic too.

Kay thx.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jul 5th 2023 at 7:56:35 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74710: Jul 5th 2023 at 8:08:18 PM

[up][up][up] Literally everything Prime is doing and some people vocally hate it, so what does that tell you?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#74711: Jul 5th 2023 at 8:29:51 PM

Sonic's hyperactiveness from the first episode turned me off immediately is what I got from that.

There's better ways to display those traits and it's only because of the way Sonic was portrayed.

I can assume he's only slightly better now, but I'm fine not absorbing every piece of Sonic media.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74712: Jul 5th 2023 at 8:51:44 PM

That's why "foil" is a better descriptive term for what those characters are.

Even this wiki gets in on it with the Stock Shōnen Rival page, where it's more accurately "Stock Shonen foil"

Well... foil is an extremely broad term, so that doesn't entirely work. Stock Shōnen Rival is about a very specific character type, which works because Shonen works actually do tend to name that character type as "Rival," so whatever.

I agree that Sonic stopped having Shock Shonen Rival characters a very, very long time ago, though. Shadow isn't a rival, and he's also not really an example of Stock Shōnen Rival either, showing few of the traits of those kinds of characters. Sonic Team has made several attempts to try and force him to be that way, and it's never really worked.

Prime, probably due to being a Western series, played Shadow more as the exaggerated Batman to Sonic's Superman. They want the same things, and even have the same plans, it's just that Shadow refuses to believe that the idealistic way can get the job done and prefers to do things himself.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74713: Jul 5th 2023 at 8:55:32 PM

Well predictably, someone put Shadow on the page so...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74714: Jul 5th 2023 at 9:01:45 PM

To clarify, Shadow was briefly an example of that, but the character swiftly left that characterization behind, so he's still a legitimate example to add to the page (and him being directly inspired by more solid examples would probably have put him on the page regardless).

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74715: Jul 6th 2023 at 1:42:10 AM

I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't see Sonic as particularly more flawed than usual in Prime and the real problem is people just not explaining things to him or responding with violence where it is completely unnecessary.

Then again, I don't see exactly why Sonic's flaws have to affect the plot at all and this thread is the first time I've seen anyone call game Sonic "boring".

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#74716: Jul 6th 2023 at 1:51:14 AM

You can find people on Twitter hating ANYTHING if you look deep enough. Hell, there will be a shitstorm whenever there is femenine and/or queer representation in media over there.

Seriously, fandoms in Twitter are to be left alone, you won't get a proper discussion.

Sonic in Prime is IMO on point, because the flaws are in character. He is cocky and reckless, quick to make friends and protective of those. Yeah that is Sonic alright.

Superman also makes mistakes and has a deeper character than "flawless boy scout".

Edited by Eriorguez on Jul 6th 2023 at 10:54:40 AM

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#74717: Jul 6th 2023 at 2:24:27 AM

Well I mean there's nuance to even paragon figures. Superman in the DCAU is a morally admirable character still prone to real mistakes and is written as a bit more human in comparison to the pre-Crisis portrayals common prior to 1986. The various live action TV shows like Smallville and Superman & Lois have done their own thing, and the Snyderverse went hard on the messiah aspect of him to fairly mixed results.

Sonic is an interesting case because I think the mass audience perception leans closer to an idea of him as basically a cool and heroic figure, with some cockiness/confidence thrown in. The Japanese/Adventure era characterization of him as the force of nature that changes other people rather than developing himself is certainly there, but its a concept far more noticed (and appreciated) by a segment of the fandom.

Broader popular culture absorbed surface level elements from the 1999-2008 games while not necessarily always taking in the deeper character stuff. Its why Shadow could drift so much from his original SA 2 portrayal without as much backlash because for much of audience outside the hardcores, the shift was either not noticed or not really seen as that big an issue.

Edited by BorneAgain on Jul 6th 2023 at 5:25:13 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74718: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:03:11 AM

I even had to tell people that Sonic stopped being exclusively Japanese when it hit international audiences.

But yea, most of the hard-core Sonic fanbase came up on the Japanese interpretation of Sonic who is more or less a flawless paragon, or at the very least, doesn't experience much development himself and is pretty static. But that's not how writing works in other regions, particularly in Western areas where yea, the expectation is that your characters need some type of vice to overcome.

Superman has gotten shit for this for years by mainstream audiences.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#74719: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:18:27 AM

Okay so

Prime Sonic is out of character largely because he

  • comes across as naive and inexperienced, when that can't be further from the truth (ESPECIALLY after a confirmed 900 adventures as of the upcoming IDW issue)
  • is extremely reckless and impatient to the extent that he ignores basic suggestions because he can't wait, when in canon Sonic is actually decently patient and even has hobbies that don't involve any kind of physical activity (like reading)
  • Takes his friends for granted and has to learn about valuing his friends, which not only was never something Sonic displayed prior, but he was also the very person sharing the importance of friendship and teamwork

That all being said, in the context of just Prime I do actually like this show, I just think its terrible job at BEING canon is one of its biggest flaws atm.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#74720: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:21:18 AM

Much like all other continuities (except IDW, which really does seem to want to be in continuity with the games), I just ignore anyone trying to claim Prime is compatible with the games.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74721: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:38:42 AM

I already take every Sonic product on its own to begin with, even the games.

This series doesn't care anywhere near as much about continuity as some think it does.

Its just much healthier.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#74722: Jul 6th 2023 at 7:01:44 AM

Prime isn't compatible with the games, but I felt that was obvious with the emphasis on Green Hill as this place they all care about a lot, when that's never been a thing in the games.

Forces has the place get literally razed to the ground and Sonic just had a pithy comment and moved on.

But on the other hand, judging from stuff like the time they flash back to Tails' backstory, they are trying to take the games into account in some form, if not all the time.

neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#74723: Jul 6th 2023 at 7:33:58 AM

One version of Sonic is a nice guy, the Sonic the Comic Sonic is a jerk. The other Sonics fall in between the two extremes of personality.

Edited by neoamon on Jul 6th 2023 at 3:34:13 PM

"May your heart be your guiding key"
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#74724: Jul 6th 2023 at 7:49:26 AM

It's because this show is not only claimed to be canonical repeatedly (only time will tell if that's really the case), but also that it very clearly piggybacks off of canon to speed up the introduction of its characters.

Tails was bullied by the Origins bullies just like the games, Knuckles was guarding the ME just like the games, Sonic fought Eggman on Green Hill just like Sonic 1, Orbot & Cubot are here just like current era Sonic, Shadow is just present despite the baggage his backstory does (... or should, in the case of Boom) entails, Eggman robots have animals within them just like the Classic games, and the show starts without really introducing anyone besides a cursory mention of who they are just in case a viewer is ENTIRELY unaware.

This show oh so desperately wants to be canon real badly, but it just fails to line everything up adequately.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#74725: Jul 6th 2023 at 7:50:51 AM

There's a difference between sharing background and actually being in continuity.

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