I'm a fan of Zelda and Final Fantasy and I don't understand the comparison. What's a classic vs modern Zelda fan? 2D vs 3D Zelda? I've never seen that really be a contentious issue among Zelda fans or people talking about Zelda. BotW/TotK vs everything before them? That's something people argue intensely about, but it's not directly compatible since at the moment the general discourse is the opposite where the loudest voices are weirdly positive about the new thing instead of weirdly negative about the new thing. And I have no idea where the line on classic vs modern FF could be. Every FF game plays significantly different from every other, and any lines people draw for "the series is shit after this" varies from person to person for what game that is.
I think there's other series where people draw more clear lines, like Castlevania with Classicvania vs Metroidvania, or Mega Man with its explicit sub-series. Though in my experience the fans for those are generally pretty chill and don't argue about new styles ruining the franchise like Sonic fans do.
And arguing that the jump to 3D changed things more for Sonic than Mario by using Frontiers, the newest game in the series that came out 25 years after the first 3D game, feels disingenuous. Would you argue there was such a large leap from Sonic 3 to Sonic Adventure that the core was changed, in a way that wasn't changed for the leap from Mario World to Mario 64?
In any case, I'm not trying to argue against whether it makes sense for an individual to want more Sonic games that play similar to the Mega Drive ones. I'm arguing that as a movement among many people, the notion that spread in the 2000s of a hard line in the sand between the Mega Drive games and 3D Sonic is unusual in how much it blamed the drop in quality directly on just being different and how widespread it got even to where non-fans who didn't actually have a strong opinion about anything Sonic would talk about Sonic "rough transition into 3D" like it was unanimously accepted fact.
So hence I'm saying that, it's not like Sonic Team didn't know people liked the Mega Drive games. Of course they did. But there's no reason for them to have expected that many people would look at the lesser quality games Sonic Team would put out (mostly caused by development shenanigans like Sega rushing their games out the door) and say that this drop in quality was directly caused by Sonic Team doing something different and that they should never have even tried to experiment or do anything different, and that because of this they should make a sub-series of nothing but throwbacks to the Mega Drive games.
That's generally because not many people were aware of just how many developmental woes Sega and Sonic Team were under. The curtain on game development wasn't as pulled back as it is now.
The only thing that people knew is that Sonic games were steadily decreasing in quality from what they were as they were constantly changing. It's pretty easy to correlate the drop in quality with those changes when there was so much information we lacked at the time.
And to be blunt, it didn't matter that we didn't know. It's not like Sega were the only game developers to undergo hard times in the 2000's but were still capable putting out decent products despite it.
"Old Sonic is good, new Sonic is bad" is a pretty easy mindset to fall into when the game quality speaks for itself. I'm not saying it was fair how 3D Sonic was (and still is tbh) treated, but you can only put out middling content for so long before people get fed up and start yearning for older times. Circumstances be damned.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 11th 2023 at 3:19:43 PM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I don't think I disagree with any of that? Again, I'm not arguing any point related to the validity of fan reactions. Only that Sonic Team had no reason to expect those reactions. The original sentence that started this exchange was
I was nitpicking this because the wording implied that Sonic Team just didn't understand that people liked classic Sonic games and so were doing other things instead of mining the gold mine that is making more games exactly like class Sonic. But obviously that's not true. They were doing "their own thing" in the 2000s and early 2010s because, well, every developer does different stuff with their game series after a while, especially when they shift to a new console. Sonic isn't unique in that regard.
If the main difference is that Sonic Team screwed up and made bad games, well they weren't planning to make bad games. They were planning to do the same thing as everyone else, make good games but with whatever new stuff they wanted to do and people would generally like it because they were good quality. So there's no reason why Sonic Team at the time would think they should keep making games exactly like the old ones in the form of a sub-series. It's not like any other game series was doing that as a response to people saying their new games were shit.
Edited by KuroBaraHime on Jun 11th 2023 at 3:46:03 PM
As far as the reported news about Superstars development, neutral on most of it. Arzest instead of Sonic Team feels like lateral move competence wise and given Senoue's less than consistent record with Classic style music, it might be up to Lopes and others to reign in some of his instrument choices.
Edited by BorneAgain on Jun 11th 2023 at 8:51:36 AM
Helix made a terrible Silent Hill game yet would wound up making the Killer Instinct reboot which was amazing. Theres's no need to disregard one company just because they put up one game. They all grow in time.
"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."If you're a fan of Sonic CD and games primarily directed/overseen by Naoto Oshima...
The Stardust Speedway inspired level design should provide some comfort in that one level.
2 mediocre Yoshi games and 1 Balan is no hope killer, they just dampen it.
Arzest is clearly the right company for the job, for whatever reason.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.![]()
The game’s writing was a large improvement but the actual gameplay was quite flawed. The open world design felt like a large empty wasteland with with rails and springs haphazardly thrown in; it didn’t feel like a polished, cohesive open world. The Cyberspace levels were flat out recycled content from previous games. Sonic Frontiers is a good base for a sequel to improve on at least
Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Jun 11th 2023 at 12:04:29 PM
Once Upon A Time.IIRC Megaman fans used to be purist and anal back during the 2000’s about which Megaman franchises you’re “supposed” to like and fail against newer games that didn’t satisfy those sub franchise, but from my engagement with the fans these days they’ve mostly grown out of it in a way that I really wish would’ve happened with the Sonic fandom, and there’s a lot more embracing of everything the franchise offers rather than provincialism.
My favorite Megaman franchise is Battle Network - used to be even mentioning you liked it to other Megaman fans would get you flamed, whereas now a return to the series has been pretty applauded. Feels nice.
Granted, Megaman fans spent several years getting jack shit from Capcom that caused them all to bond together, and that may have been the big reason this growth happened. -And even with that said, even during that time the asshole elements of the fanbase just directed that vitriol towards other Capcom fanbases rather than each other.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 11th 2023 at 9:32:26 AM
I muted Sonic and Superstars off my Twitter for now. The game doesn't look appealing to me with the external factors behind it, and I can't help but feel "been here, done that" with the future reception.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.I feel like Sonic is a bit better than where it was back in the 2000's or 2010's in terms of fandom.
Like I personally thought Frontiers could have been way better, but its obviously popular with the Adventure sect of fans who were waiting for a return to some of that over the top anime Action from before.
Origins...well I can literally play better versions of all of those games on my PC so it doesn't really affect me.
And Superstars looks pretty decent tbh. It will probably get better reception than Frontiers though just by virtue of being 2D Classic Sonic though.
So hey, most Sonic fans are getting what they want nowadays, even if it's not in the way I would have preferred.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.The new little scrumblo is named Trip
. According to Iizuka Fang met up with them and now they're teaming up.
Edited by taotruths on Jun 11th 2023 at 12:00:57 PM
Do we know for sure Trip is a he yet? I can see them keeping it ambiguous and then doing the Samus reveal once the helmet comes off.
Also, betting that Trip is playing The Klutz on purpose to hinder the bad guys until their Heel–Face Turn.
Trip isn't a very feminine name...but then again neither is Amy.
So you have a shot.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

Its not really that simple; Mario is doing the same thing he's been doing since 1985, rescuing princesses and stomping on Goombas. Even the core gameplay hasn't really changed since it's still fundamentally about jumping and platforming. Not to the mention, with the exception of Sunshine, the games have been rather consistently good.
A game like Sonic Frontiers, where there is a larger emphasis on combat and exploration compared to the platforming roots of the first few Sonic games, well of course there's gonna be way more diverse and controversial opinions about it.
Sonic has changed so significantly since its inception that fans and critics alike have all developed their own idea of what Sonic "is supposed to be" that will obviously clash with each other. And it's a fact that the series was at the height of its popularity in the 90's when there was a more solid foundation of the series' roots.
Even if the Adventure games were popular in their debut, series had begun to change drastically by Adventure 2 that the concept of Classic Sonic was just dead in the water. Obviously if you preferred that type of gameplay for Sonic over what the 3D games were doing, you were basically SOL.
Like it's not even just Sonic; you have Classic Zelda fans and modern Zelda fans, ditto for Final Fantasy fans.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.