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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73576: May 9th 2023 at 2:02:27 PM

Yea, I think the fact that Metal Sonic hadn't been in the series for a decade to that point outside of cameos and spin offs made people forget about how out of nowhere his appearance is. Sure, you get two scenes that foreshadow that he's returned, but not the how or why. The latter gets explained, but now the How or When cuz everything that happened with him happened offscreen.

Granted, I think his motives are understandable and make sense for the type of character Metal Sonic is as opposed to the vague concept of Death that The End is meant to represent.

[up][up][up] That may be what they intended for Infinite, but they inadvertently tied Shadow to a major part of his development and as a result, it's pretty glaring when the game doesn't elaborate further on this.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on May 9th 2023 at 5:03:55 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#73577: May 9th 2023 at 2:04:46 PM

I don't think Metal Sonic in Heroes is very comparable to The End. Even though the characters don't find out Metal Sonic is the villain and taken Eggman's place until the end, the game doesn't particularly try to hide it from the player. If you just watch through the opening cinematic you'll see that Metal Sonic is in the game, halfway into Team Sonic and Dark we're shown that Eggman is actually Metal Sonic in disguise, and Team Chaotix's story drops hints all over it that their employer is Eggman. And once he reveals himself to everyone in the last story there's nothing to really explain, he's just Metal Sonic powered up who took forcibly Eggman's place to be in charge and wants to beat Sonic. The only way you could be confused about anything is if you had no idea who Metal Sonic was from previous games. Heroes isn't even trying hard to have a deep plot in the first place.

The End is a new "character" kept super mysterious the whole game and it leaves things off with little enough explanation as to invite confusion over what it is and what exactly happened.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73578: May 9th 2023 at 2:07:00 PM

Yea, like I said, the fact that Metal is a returning character alleviated it somewhat.

It was just the context surrounding his return that was lost.

The End lacks context in its entirety.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#73579: May 9th 2023 at 2:38:12 PM

The End feels like a being so clearly designed as a metaphor representing nihilism/fatalism that I think character analysis and the deeper implications of its place in the lore are going to have their limits given more its more critical in story role as the anti-Sonic antagonist.

I think its why I wasn't as bothered by its inconsistent introduction/foreshadowing with the context of Frontiers story; once its function as the pseudo allegorical philosophy that Sonic will always fight against (at least that's how I took it) became clear, I just kind of accepted that and moved on.

Edited by BorneAgain on May 9th 2023 at 5:43:12 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#73580: May 9th 2023 at 4:07:45 PM

[up]Ditto. It seemed fitting that in a series where the Chaos Emeralds are usually a good thing, and the protagonist represents freedom, a villain would represent the still nothingness of oblivion. So when it seemed (at least to me) like it was saying that THE END was the opposite primordial force to the Chaos Emeralds, following them ever since they were gathered, I just thought, "Makes sense to me!"

Was I alone in reading the story that way?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73581: May 9th 2023 at 4:19:25 PM

That just reads as "generic evil thing that is evil" to me. It doesn't necessarily need to be a deep character, but if you're going with the interpretation that its an antithesis to Sonic then maybe the game could show Sonic actually reacting to it in some way? I dunno, the series has had a lot of Sonic antithesis` that have done that concept way better, so The End just comes off as whatever to me.

And its gonna be hilarious when the next game just moves on from it like nothing happened. Its hyped as the biggest, baddest villain ever and then Sonic just kills the concept of death and its just another day at the office lol.

Maybe this really is just "furry DBZ" at this point.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on May 9th 2023 at 7:20:43 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#73582: May 9th 2023 at 4:25:01 PM

I didn't say it was the antithesis to Sonic, and Sonic wouldn't have to react overtly anyway. I felt enough was conveyed for me through the flashback cutscenes, the monologue, and the Ancients' reactions that I didn't need more hand-holding through it, but that's me.

And requiring the very next game to follow up on THE END isn't really necessary. Not all villains have to make back to back appearances.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on May 9th 2023 at 6:29:41 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73583: May 9th 2023 at 4:33:17 PM

Well that's just following up on what Tobias said on how The End gets all of this dramatic setup and then its just dealt with as soon as it shows up. Its part of the reason it leaves a lot to be desired to me, both as a concept and as a villain.

I'm mostly poking fun at how the writers talk it up as such a big deal and then Sonic just deals with it as casually as he did every other boss in the game.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#73584: May 9th 2023 at 4:39:31 PM

I think part of it (just speaking for myself here) is that Frontiers just comes off as a course correction title where its more of a fix/proof of concept for the next era than an outright execution of genuinely strong narrative. Get Sonic in a serious situation that's treated with some gravitas, repair the characterizations of the supporting players a bit, find a new angle with Eggman, and have a non-nonsense antagonist with just enough novelty in its form to not get immediate surface level comparisons with previous villains.

Its an odd correlation, but Frontiers is a bit like the original Colors in that its function is to basically re-rail various broad elements in the series that were perceived as going off kilter; with the story to a degree taking a backseat. In that sense its why I can acknowledge the actual ho-hum nature of The End, while also admitting it didn't really bother me. Promotional hype or not, its the doomsday means to an end to raise the stakes, and for what this game is attempting to do with franchise long term, that's all it needs to be for me.

I mean this is coming from someone who tends to be pretty forgiving towards more minimalist Sonic stories so I'm likely inclined to cut Frontiers a bit of slack in that respect anyway.

Edited by BorneAgain on May 9th 2023 at 7:48:54 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73585: May 9th 2023 at 5:01:10 PM

That's an interesting way to look at it actually. I guess for me, the game kind of needs to stand on its own more than simply setting the stage for future games. One of the reasons I feel like Colors got the reception that it did is that it was mostly just a game. They didn't advertise it as some bold new direction, and it more or less just focuses on being a lite version of Unleashed. Not what I personally liked, but I can see why its general reception was pretty good.

I think the writing was pretty lackluster in it, but it also didn't take itself very seriously to begin with and its narrative is pretty self-contained. Sonic saves aliens from Eggman, the end.

Sonic Frontiers is like the exact opposite where its built up as this big, epic event that's gonna change Sonic's future forever, but the presentation is kind of limp. And more than anything, it sets up expectations for the future that it may or may not live up to.

I think that's why the game's reception has been so divisive; because the entirety of the game is kind of sold on the idea that things are only going to improve and get better from here. Even the final vocal song, "One Way Dream" is basically Sonic Team patting themselves on the back and saying they're only getting started. Which is fine if you're a die-hard Sonic fan who are willing to wait for the next game to see what improvements are made.

Not so much for the rest of the audience that just wanted to play a good game as opposed to being sold kind of a good game that may or may not lead to a better one.

I think that's why I'm just lukewarm about it overall, because I've been through the song and dance of Sonic Team making promises that they never really live up to as opposed to just ya know...fixing the problems they have now and just making a decent game from the jump.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#73586: May 9th 2023 at 5:06:46 PM

I'm just happy Flynn got to write one game for the series.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#73587: May 9th 2023 at 5:16:21 PM

I didn't like the End as a character because we are clearly supposed to treat it like a serious character but I found the attempt made lacking. That's the risk you take when writing something like this, not everyone will like what you've written even if they get what you were going for.

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#73588: May 9th 2023 at 5:18:06 PM

[up][up][up]That's entirely fair. If I'm being honest, I think there's a certain distance I have with a lot of mainline Sonic that typically keeps me from being too disillusioned while at the same time keeping from being as invested/affected as others. Its kind of economical approach; give me something I can replay enough times, in enough of a straight forward fashion and I can forgive a lot. With Frontiers my focused hope was having an overworld that was fun to mess around with and enough newish things to do with abilities, and the game's delivered on both enough.

The story and character set-ups have left me intrigued, even if that's with the caveat that I'm skeptical about getting pay offs to a lot of it. I don't know if a clean slate was outright necessary to do the character/tone changes Sonic Team apparently wanted, but if that's what they've felt they needed I'm reasonably optimistic that the follow-up could be stronger, if only because Frontiers has done the (hypothetical) leg work already.

Edited by BorneAgain on May 9th 2023 at 8:21:40 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73589: May 9th 2023 at 5:54:23 PM

I mean the game is fun with mods at least.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#73590: May 9th 2023 at 6:55:15 PM

I think the game's pretty fun overall, period. Super looking forward to getting Knux, Tails, and Amy in there as playable characters. I just think the final boss is an abrupt and undercooked conclusion to what is otherwise a great new direction for the Sonic franchise.

To quote something I was actually saying about a different piece of media earlier today, it isn't the first awesome piece of media to shit the bed right at the end, and it won't be the last. But on the whole, it's still largely good.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#73591: May 9th 2023 at 6:57:06 PM

I wouldn't even say it shit the bed. More like... The game finished before the player did, if you know what I mean.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#73592: May 9th 2023 at 7:04:45 PM

So, random trivia I guess. According to a user, there is one line of dialogue in Frontiers about Silver with the Elder Koko.

Flynn didn't write it. The Japanese co-writer did.

Hm.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#73593: May 9th 2023 at 11:31:20 PM

I still find the idea of the game being divisive absurd, otherwise it would have received sales on par with Sonic Forces.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73594: May 10th 2023 at 4:12:58 AM

Sales =/= Quality.

You should consider that the game was heavily advertised everywhere so of course more people knew about it and the good will from the movies.

It selling well isn't really indicative of its quality of a video game.

Unless you're gonna say Pokémon Sword and Shield or Pokémon Scarlet and Violet aren't divisive too.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on May 10th 2023 at 7:15:11 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#73595: May 10th 2023 at 4:17:40 AM

Even so, you should consider the word-of-mouth it got in regards to the positive buzz.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73596: May 10th 2023 at 5:03:10 AM

Well of course it's not divisive if you only focus on the positives...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#73597: May 10th 2023 at 5:04:34 AM

I think "divisive" implies more than a Vocal Minority on one of the sides.

Otherwise, literally everything could be considered "divisive" as nothing is loved by everyone.

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#73598: May 10th 2023 at 5:06:22 AM

Steam reviews are 94% positive for Frontiers. That isn't a divisive game. Neither are any Pokemon games ttbt.

As a rule, internet forums don't paint a clear picture. All we are are nerds nitpicking, and some people prefer to nitpick and accentuate the negative over enjoying stuff.

Edited by Eriorguez on May 10th 2023 at 2:07:06 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73599: May 10th 2023 at 5:08:23 AM

I mean if we're gonna cite review sites, it's got a 72% critic score on Metacritic.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on May 10th 2023 at 8:09:40 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#73600: May 10th 2023 at 5:27:38 AM

No, we're not starting with this shit about critics again.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."

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