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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73176: Apr 21st 2023 at 5:54:43 PM

[up][up][up] Yea, but everyone being an orbiter to Sonic is one of the biggest complaints about them.

Letting them have some breathing room away from sonic does wonders.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#73177: Apr 21st 2023 at 5:55:40 PM

No, not if we mean in the sense of having a comic book-like rogue gallery. I don't think it's a good idea to have the cast crowded with a bunch of static antagonists.

The thing with villains is that there's really only two things that can happen to them. Either they redeem themselves or they die (or are otherwise indefinitely incapacitated). Having one or two villains like Eggman is fine, but having many means you have a bunch of inconsequential villains who aren't really doing anything.

Yeah, you could make arguments about how stuff of consequence could still happen with static antagonists, but that becomes harder when the good guys in Sonic are also static characters for the most part. Barring differing writer interpretations (which isn't the same thing as character development) Sonic is always going to be the same Sonic, and after their initial appearances, Knuckles is always going to be the same Knuckles, etc. Static heroes versus static villains is going to easily lead to a lot of plots where nothing of interest happens.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73178: Apr 21st 2023 at 5:57:09 PM

Yea, but we have that currently with everything being focused on Sonic and Eggman and everyone else just...existing in service to that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73179: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:05:12 PM

We already had a lot of plots where nothing of interest happens...

The only time anything of interest happens is when they introduce a new character.

Well...do the same thing, but with a villain who stays evil instead of die off after one appearance.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#73180: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:06:19 PM

I got bottom paged so I'll repeat what I said.

Yes, that would have been the best thing to do with several of the side characters years ago when they started getting personal stories of their own. Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow at least could do with having one. Blaze already has one (Eggman Nega), she just needs more games about her and him with Sonic and Eggman showing up.

I Like Mammoth Mongol and Dr. Finitevus from the comics as nemeses for Tail and Knuckles respectively, as a reference for what I'd like to see for those two if it ever happened.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#73181: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:08:02 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, but if the question is just "do you want the other characters to get more focus?" then the answer is yes but that's also an even more open-ended question as to what exact form that could take.

These sorts of questions are hard to answer because a lot of it depends on execution, which you obviously can't judge from just a simple what if question. But I default to a negative stance if we approach the scenario from the angle of "what if we give [Tails/Knuckles/Shadow/whoever] their own reoccurring nemesis?" because I just imagine many potential attempts at that would lead to mediocre characters who don't have much of an idea to them besides filling a role, but we'll be stuck with them for multiple stories simply because the creators intended them to stay around, sort of like what happened with Zavok and the Zetis.

Edited by KuroBaraHime on Apr 21st 2023 at 9:08:28 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73182: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:20:21 PM

Maybe, but I feel like that would be preferable than just "introducing random antagonists of the week who only care about Sonic and then just die."

Not only is that incredibly limiting, its once again robbing the cast of any opportunity to actually do anything meaningful in favor of just making them play second fiddle to Sonic...again.

Think of it like this; we've had a million stories where Sonic is front and center where the villains are focused on him and all of the supporting cast just exist to help Sonic.

But how many stories do we get where the villain is focused on say, Knuckles and the Master Emerald? There's a lot less of the latter than the former. I think its just a cop out to just say its inherently negative and then just continue this pattern of everything just defaulting to the typical pattern of "Sonic faces Eggman or some new villain of the week who will disappear after this game"

Its just kind of boring imo.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73183: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:21:05 PM

If we're perfectly honest here, it's a weird stance to take saying that side characters couldn't possibly get villains of their own...

They don't all need them and most of them would do perfectly fine without one, but for characters who are limited by only being Sonic's support squad...there's nothing wrong with giving characters like Knuckles and Silver an actual antagonist.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#73184: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:29:54 PM

Basically, it doesn't hurt the franchise if a few characters get an Arch-Enemy to focus on besides being sidekicks to Sonic forever so there isn't really a "good" argument against adding any either. The best anyone could say is claiming no one at Sonic Team is competent enough to make them work so why bother, but the last thing this franchise' games need lack of new ideas for its characters.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#73185: Apr 21st 2023 at 6:41:45 PM

I don't see how anything I said makes me against other characters getting focus or having a personal villain. I mean, I think Shadow the Hedgehog is a good game, so holding those viewpoints would be rather contradictory.

I'm just saying that making a character purely to fit a role isn't a very good angle to go about things, and the vagueness of the question makes me imagine nothing good from it. The original question doesn't even imply that the existing supporting cast will actually get more focus because of this. You could for example make a nemesis for Knuckles, but have that nemesis be an unimportant side villain that barely matters, meaning it wouldn't do anything towards giving Knuckles more focus.

And if the question is really about giving another character besides Sonic their own game, or a game where they're equal in focus to Sonic, then there's not inherently a need to give them a "nemesis" when you could just as easily make something with Eggman again or with a one-off villain.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#73186: Apr 21st 2023 at 7:27:39 PM

Maybe for some of the major characters they'd benefit from personal enemies, but the other supporting characters can stay supporting characters.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73187: Apr 21st 2023 at 7:29:10 PM

If you want me to make it less vague; basically personal enemies that help explore the characters in ways that generally can't be done if they're playing second fiddle to Sonic or competing with him for attention in any given story.

Like say a villain connected to the Echidnas and Master Emerald?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73188: Apr 21st 2023 at 7:31:43 PM

[up] Depends on how developed the story is. The more cinematic and developed a story is, the less of an issue having antagonists who are more specifically focused on supporting characters vs the main character becomes. It's just a function of having a storytelling style that delivers the time and space necessary for such a thing.

A story on the level of Adventure or Frontiers probably wouldn't have much issue with such a thing, if they so chose.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#73189: Apr 21st 2023 at 7:40:09 PM

The old Archie comic did give Tails and Knuckles their own arch enemies like Mammoth Mogul and Enerjak.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Negacube Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#73190: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:01:00 PM

The only characters that outright need their own villains are Silver and Blaze, because Dr. Eggman can't easily travel to their respective worlds. If IDW is canon to the games, then Clutch and his mercenary hangers-on are sufficient opponents for lower-rung characters like the Chaotix and Rouge.

The real issue is Eggman's unoriginal plans. He doesn't do much beyond make endless seas of mindless robots, build superweapons, and release Great Old Ones. What can he do that hasn't been done before and give supporting characters a chance to stand out on their own?

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73191: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:06:48 PM

That's probably why he wasn't the big bad of any game for a while...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#73192: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:07:52 PM

Dr. Starline, Surge and Kit gave that much needed new energy for our villain deficit.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73193: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:11:43 PM

Yea...but they're all still primarily focused on Sonic too.

I suppose like [up][up][up][up] said, it depends on what exactly is the focus of any given narrative. So a lot of the time, there's just no need to have any real focus on the side cast.

But then you get things like this recent IDW arc where Silver and Blaze are just...there to fill numbers. Its not bad, but its not very fulfilling either ya know.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73194: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:29:30 PM

Filling the numbers is one of many reasons I think the stories need to start focusing on lower stakes narratives.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73195: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:34:14 PM

I've been thinking about this sort of thing a bit recently, funnily enough, because I've been wondering what the heck the story plan is for the Frontiers DLC.

I think someone on the thread suggested at one point we might see old villains come back as arc-antagonists for Tails / Amy / Knuckles', which is an idea I like and I think might be possible.

I'm not hugely experienced with the comics, but one thing I do know about Ian Flynn is that he's very fond of that sort of thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 21st 2023 at 8:34:24 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73196: Apr 21st 2023 at 9:24:41 PM

Depends on how ambitious Sonic Team wanna be. Personally I'm expecting just a small collection of Cyberspace levels.

And its less because I'm cynical, and more because this is free DLC. I cannot imagine anyone putting too much effort into something they're essentially giving away.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#73197: Apr 22nd 2023 at 2:30:14 AM

Doctor Zachary from Fleetway, Dimitri/Enerjak and Doctor Finitevus from Archie have served as Knuckles arch enemy. They all were Echidna scientists that went through a transformation, Doctor Zachary into a cyborg, Dimitri into Enerjak then into a Cyborg, Doctor Finitevus with Chaos energy turning him into a white Echidna with Chaos powers. So will Knuckles new arch enemy be an Echidna scientist?

Edited by neoamon on Apr 22nd 2023 at 10:39:57 AM

"May your heart be your guiding key"
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#73198: Apr 22nd 2023 at 4:33:09 AM

I honestly like it when Tails is the one focusing on fighting Eggman, ngl.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73199: Apr 22nd 2023 at 7:57:01 AM

Too bad Eggman is more focused on Sonic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
taotruths Live Jet Reaction (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I sleep in a big bed with my wife.
Live Jet Reaction
#73200: Apr 22nd 2023 at 8:04:42 AM

Going to briefly interject with the new illustration of VECTORMAN and Vanilla.

Vanilla looks very fine, while Vector looks pretty amazing in that get-up.


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