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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72251: Mar 25th 2023 at 9:35:33 AM

This isn't being cynical or anything but just recognizing pattern recognition, but traditionally Sonic is the only one who actually physically changes when transforming in the Classic games.

So I mostly expect Amy to get the same treatment Tails/Knuckles/Mighty/Ray got. So I'm just gonna brace myself for the inevitable...

Come to think of it, it's not like these are new games either. And Super forms were only available to everyone character in Sonic 3.

I wonder if they're gonna do what the mobile ports did and allow super forms in Sonic 1 and 2.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 25th 2023 at 12:37:31 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#72252: Mar 25th 2023 at 9:37:03 AM

Fair enough.

Now enjoy it when Amy goes Super anyway.

I admit, bringing up the male Hedgehogs were the only ones to go super fact was a mistake.

Nothing has happened yet, but it's better to look forward to possibilities (within reason) than to bring up more negatives.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72253: Mar 25th 2023 at 9:40:55 AM

See, I never saw that as a hard rule like everyone else does and more just a statement of fact.

Because the male hedgehogs are the only ones who've had "typcial" super forms in the games.

Its not saying anyone else can't go super, just that they haven't.

Now whether they go the extra miles and give Amy a Golden Super Mode like the others is another matter entirely and we just gotta wait and see on that.

I'm only just pointing out how they did Mighty and Ray when they had to add new Super forms.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72254: Mar 25th 2023 at 9:47:22 AM

One key difference is Amy barely talked to Shadow anyway in Adventure 2. Chris meanwhile spent a lot of time with him during Sonic X. While, yes, it's annoying he's a screenhog, it was the logical route by that point to take.

If Amy spent nearly as much time interacting with Shadow, it'd have been better. But they did handle it better here by giving Shadow someone who is much closer to how Maria is. Both were shut ins in general(due to growing up in unique situations). Amy's also already way too different(being extremely violent) compared to Chris' far more caring personality. So even if it wasn't Chris being overly used, Amy still would've barely fit anymore. She was at worst a little childish during Adventure 2, but not a violent Tsundere either.

So it's a plethora of issues to lead to that point, not simply Chris' overcharged screentime. Now, one area he was weird in instead of actually playing the role well overall was him taking over Tails' minor moment in getting Sonic a Chaos Emerald in Adventure 1. ...Key term being minor. It didn't actually mean that much who gave the Chaos Emerald, as Tails still did a lot of his other stuff too. The bigger problem is they didn't focus anyway on his development like Adventure 1 did, so it's not like that moment would've made a difference. That is partially Chris' fault, but we've seen characters get development regardless of him, so it's more of a problem with directly adapting games and shortening the episode count so much you have... very little room.

They did have much more notable stuff during Season 1 and 3 for development, because they weren't trying to adapt a straight story. Season 1 is still meh in its own way, for being pretty much filler, yet it handled the characters pretty smartly, giving them lots of stuff to do, lots of meaningful interaction, and development here and there. Hell, I don't think Amy ever really changed as a person throughout the entire thing, being the same violent Tsundere from start to finish. Meanwhile Knuckles did learn to trust others more(though to be fair, they were fine with tricking him all the time, which means he's not even at fault. Eggman also did become an ally in the third season, meaning he was the most honest one to trick him throughout the entire anime. Ironic, isn't it?).

That said, I never minded Cream's voice either, but yes, it's pretty shrill. And I have sensitive ears. My only annoyance is that at least Season 3 didn't get a new theme song(not music, just new visuals). Like, why not? It doesn't have to be completely different, just enough to not be too spoilery. You could even have it have shadowed out Generals till they're introduced, like they've done with tons of shows(they didn't have the Zords appear till later in Dino Charge's theme, for instance. That type of thing).

Shadow?
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#72255: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:25:42 PM

Liam Robinson of Game History Secrets talks to the devs of Sonic R about its development history

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#72256: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:34:35 PM

The only real changes Knuckles had in Fleetway appearance wise is going from Pink in issue 33 to red in issue 34. Also losing his clothes and the marks on his head which are probably paint in the eight thousand years since the Drakon became Chaos. It does explain why Knuckles could go into a tavern being over the drinking age by around eight thousand years.

Tails didn't have a super transformation in Fleetway but during the Zone Runner stories he did wear a brown trenchcoat and black shades, just like one of the Tails that merged into Titan Tails did in Archie.

Edited by neoamon on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:40:23 PM

"May your heart be your guiding key"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72257: Mar 25th 2023 at 2:52:04 PM

This is the Super Knuckles line in Frontiers:

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72258: Mar 25th 2023 at 3:23:39 PM

It's also worth noting the situations in which previous transformations arose.

In the Classic games, there's a good case to be made that the lack of physical differences for super forms was due to them not wanting to spend the time making new sprites for the add-on characters. This is especially true for Knuckles, who was at the time blatantly a bonus-add on character for most of the games he was in.

In the Adventure era, they were specifically trying to copy Dragonball by focusing on male hedgehogs as the Saiyan analogue, and they're the only ones who god super transformations because this group of hedgehogs (with no girls allowed, just like Dragonball at the time) were heavily pushed as the Saiyan protagonists of the series going forward. But this didn't work out and they're not doing it any more, instead heavily focusing on Sonic / Tails / Knuckles / Amy as the series' core four characters, so how they handle super forms in general is likely not going to be the same.

With that in mind, given what Origins Plus is and how Amy is put into the game, I agree with Yakuzu that we're probably going to see a Super Knuckles situation with Amy where the super form isn't much different visually from her regular form.

Really, the game we should be looking at for new super forms isn't Origins Plus, it's Frontiers, and whether major bosses in Frontiers' DLC will function the same way they do in the base game and be Super only (should there be major bosses at all).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:25:26 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72259: Mar 25th 2023 at 3:58:29 PM

It should be noted that the context surrounding Super forms is significantly different between Classic and Modern as well.

In the Classic games, Super forms were just a bonus for trudging through the special stages with no real narrative context. Even in Sonic 3, which was the most plot heavy game at the time, the opening where Knuckles takes out Super Sonic was mostly to establish why Sonic loses the Emeralds there and the Doomsday Zone boss.

Sonic Adventure is when Super forms went from nice little bonuses to well...Super Saiyans. In that, its this godly level of power that is needed to take down the final boss because Sonic's usual power level isn't enough. It went from a parody to being played straight basically.

So Sega probably figured "well, we can't just have every character be able to just become a god" and just limited it to specific circumstances and characters. Shadow is Sonic's Stock Shōnen Rival foil, so that's pretty self-explanatory on why he got one. Blaze has her own set of Emeralds and like Shadow, is presented as a foil to Sonic. Silver...well he doesn't have much to do with Sonic, but they had to force a Trunks analogue in there to go with Sonic and Shadow being Goku and Vegeta :V

Even after they kind of toned that down, Super forms are still presented as these "god level" types of power ups and Frontiers really doubles down on that after it being absent for so long.

Really, it comes down to how it fits thematically and narratively. There are narrative reasons for why Sonic, Shadow, Blaze and Silver have super forms. So Tails/Knuckles/Amy would need that too for the whole thing to feel earned imo. If they just got super forms with no fanfare...well I wouldn't mind, but I certainly wouldn't be as excited as I was when I saw Shadow and Blaze get one.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#72260: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:05:00 PM

There is probably a narrative reason why Mecha Sonic Mk 2 and Pir'Oth Ix went Super such as the need for a strong final boss.

"May your heart be your guiding key"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72261: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:07:28 PM

Really, it depends on what this extra story in Frontiers will be about. Although, they might do some cheesy shit and give the three super forms out of "their bonds with Sonic" or something.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72262: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:15:38 PM

Ultimately, I think the most likely reason Tails, Knuckles and Amy would get super forms is the exact same as the reason Shadow and Silver got them (and the reason Tails and Knuckles got forms - albeit simple ones - in the Classic era): because they’re the current co-protagonists of the franchise, and turning Super is the series’ typical way of giving its protagonists something epic to do.

So it all depends on how epic in scope the additional stories are going to be.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 25th 2023 at 4:18:12 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72263: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:22:46 PM

Well that's the meta reason anyway.

In the Wattsonian reasoning; Shadow's always had some connection with the Chaos Emeralds and was the first user of Chaos Control. Silver...also can use Chaos Control...for what ever reason.

But yea, if Sonic Team pulls the trigger they'll probably just do it just so they can do something cool and not give it any more thought than that...

What did Syndrome say? "When everyone is Super, nobody will be"

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:23:41 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#72264: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:28:40 PM

Aosth Robotnik, STC Robotnik, Movie Robotnik have all had a Super mode. So is game Robotnik next for one?

"May your heart be your guiding key"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#72265: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:29:48 PM

The easiest method would be to where each Super form is using a different Emerald as the "central" one. So far we have at least 5 Super forms in the current "timeline". Add in Amy and we get 6. If each uses a different Emerald, it could be played as each emerald pertaining to a different virtue.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:30:09 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72266: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:30:08 PM

[up][up]Breakdancing Eggman already exists.

Edited by randomness4 on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:30:20 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72267: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:31:35 PM

Oh man, imagine they brought back the fucking shields from Heroes lmao.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72268: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:34:39 PM

Since Shadow the Hedgehog there haven't been enough shields in this series...

You may point out Sonic 4, but to be honest...I don't even remember if that game had shields.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#72269: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:43:29 PM

Well that's the meta reason anyway.

In the Wattsonian reasoning; Shadow's always had some connection with the Chaos Emeralds and was the first user of Chaos Control. Silver...also can use Chaos Control...for what ever reason.

But yea, if Sonic Team pulls the trigger they'll probably just do it just so they can do something cool and not give it any more thought than that...

What did Syndrome say? "When everyone is Super, nobody will be"

There's never really been a Watsonian reasoning. The Chaos Emeralds are artifacts of nigh-limitless power, and Super forms are what happens when you channel all seven together.

Super Sonic happens when Sonic channels the Emeralds. Super Shadow happens when Shadow channels the Emeralds. Super Silver happens when Silver channels the Emeralds. In the earlier games, Super Tails happened when Tails channeled the Emeralds and Super Knuckles happened when Knuckles channeled the Emeralds. It would logically follow that the way for Super Amy to happen would be for Amy to channel the Emeralds.

It's not a facet of the character. It's a facet of the Emeralds. Anyone can go Super if they have the Emeralds. Restricting it to hedgehog dudes only for Dragon Ball synergy was strictly a Doylist decision, but there's never been anything established about the Emeralds that made them exclusively only able to be used by Sonic.

It's not that other characters couldn't go Super. It's only ever been that Sonic Team didn't want them to.

Amy has never gone Super for the same reason that Chi-Chi can't fly. It's not that it's literally impossible, in-universe, for it to ever happen. It's that her story isn't written in such a way as to grant her that opportunity.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 25th 2023 at 4:46:55 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72270: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:48:38 PM

The only reason I don't entirely agree with that is because the way the characters speak about it, using the Emeralds and emerald powers in general sounds like something that not anyone should be able to do. Shadow expressing shock and surprise that Sonic (and Silver) can use Chaos Control, and Sonic even doubting that he can use the move too, etc.

But yea, its probably more just because Sonic Team didn't want them to. But that still ties back to how the context of Super forms changed from Classic to Modern. They were distinctly not the "SUPER MEGA GOD" forms they would later become.

Its just that now, every character could conceivably have a "SUPER MEGA GOD" form in some capacity if Sonic Team willed it.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:49:22 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#72271: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:49:05 PM

So in theory any other character could use the Master Emerald to go Super too. Like Mecha Sonic Mk 2 did.

"May your heart be your guiding key"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72272: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:49:52 PM

Basically. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing and has tons of narrative implications, but its true.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#72273: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:53:47 PM

The Super Forms were fully invulnerable to all things, could effortlessly rocket through levels at speeds that made Sonic look mired in molasses, and were shown to be capable of self-propelled flight on a few occasions. I'd define Super Sonic/Tails/Knux in Sonic 2, 3, and K as pretty SUPER MEGA GOD.

What changed in the modern games was that they started introducing SUPER MEGA GOD villains who could actually go toe-to-toe with Super Forms. Super Sonic didn't get stronger; He just started encountering enemies like Chaos or Biolizard who warrant such an incredibly powerful response.

You couldn't have Super Sonic fight Death Egg Robot because he'd take it apart in five seconds.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 25th 2023 at 4:55:28 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72274: Mar 25th 2023 at 4:57:01 PM

That's exactly what they did in Sonic 3 :V

And like I said, they were just gameplay bonuses in the Classics and not much else. It was only in Sonic Adventure when they started to gain narrative significance.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:57:19 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#72275: Mar 25th 2023 at 5:01:08 PM

In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, they literally determine the fate of Angel Island. If you don't have Super Sonic, you don't recover the Master Emerald from Eggman. There's even a whole level and bonus boss dedicated exclusively to Super Sonic reclaiming the Master Emerald.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 25th 2023 at 5:01:26 AM

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