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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72026: Mar 20th 2023 at 4:55:27 AM

Shadow's The Lancer, you can't really keep them apart for too long.

What? No, he's not.

Even in games where they're both present Sonic and Shadow rarely interact on a personal level, and when they do he's never put in the Lancer role.

The closest thing Sonic has to a Lancer is Knuckles, and even then only rarely.


[up] That's the one that's basically a patch to make the Starfall Islands less monotonous, right?

It's too bad the really big update people are looking forward to comes out at the end of the year.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2023 at 4:57:37 AM

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#72027: Mar 20th 2023 at 5:20:00 AM

Honestly, I hope the promised challenges includes boss rematch. I didn't remember to cyloop any of them after the first one.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#72028: Mar 20th 2023 at 7:12:33 AM

The closest we get to Shadow in a second in command role is Team Dark being the second to last team to fight Metal Sonic in Heroes, and that barely counts.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72029: Mar 20th 2023 at 7:56:35 AM

I only need two words to prove you wrong about Jojo: Stand Arrows. Or, Speedwagon Foundation. Or just "DIO". The fact that these stories are connected is important. Hell, it's even a plot point that Stand users (and prospective Stand users) are drawn to each other. That world is designed to be connected.

The IDW comics have the same start as the games, but there is no confirmation that that continues. And even if it does, that's not a problem when it comes to introducing new consumers of a new media to the story. Did you have these same complaints about Sonic X or any of the other shows having a similar starting point as stemming from Sonic 1 through K?

A world being connected through common plot elements isn't the same as literally being the same overarching story with the same cast of characters. That's why Jojo has a different protagonist and supporting cast every part, while Sonic generally uses the same cast and story structure no matter the medium.

There's no confirmation that IDW continues with the game canon because the latest game in the series literally just came out less than six months ago. Now if years go by and the two diverge heavily? Sure, but as of right now the assumption is that they're both interchangeable.

Three times total, in 3 different media, across eleven years.

I personally feel like I see it too often, but that's an opinion and I don't feel like arguing that. Agree to disagree.

[up][up][up] Definition of the trope, as defined by this very website.

The Foil for a hero of the closely allied variety.

In general, the Lancer will often form one half of a Red Oni, Blue Oni contrasting duo with the main character. While they may butt heads with The Leader, they're usually the Best Friend by the end of it all.

That is quite literally Shadow's character to T. The only part that's not there is being best friends with Sonic. But everything else? spot on.

I don't see why he wouldn't qualify just because they're not always together. If anything, the fact that their alliances are on and off only reinforces it. And ya know, a main character is allowed to have more than one Lancer.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 20th 2023 at 10:58:26 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#72030: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:28:50 AM

And ya know, a main character is allowed to have more than one Lancer.

I've pretty sure they actually aren't allowed.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Mar 20th 2023 at 11:30:55 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72031: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:30:14 AM

Nothing on the page specifies that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#72032: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:31:21 AM

Well, the trope is a mess. Unsurprising considering how long we've had it.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#72033: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:31:37 AM

Syndrome: (editing the wiki) And when everyone's the Lancer? Then no one will be.

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#72034: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:32:43 AM

Either way, though, Shadow's way too Out of Focus I'd say.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72035: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:48:04 AM

[up]*6: Within the very quote you used:

In general, the Lancer will often form one half of a Red Oni, Blue Oni contrasting duo with the main character. While they may butt heads with The Leader, they're usually the Best Friend by the end of it all

The closeness of the two characters is very important to The Lancer, in particular, in contrast to more similar tropes like Knight in Sour Armor or Shadow Archetype. The idea of a Lancer is of a character with a close relationship with the main character, who vitally contrasts their point of view but who is otherwise staunchly loyal. "Is a character in the narrative who has an opposing viewpoint" is not what the The Lancer is about.

Keep in mind the quote you posted also connects them to Red Oni, Blue Oni, which is an interaction trope. Characters who rarely interact stretch the definition of that trope too.

The fact that Shadow rarely has anything to do with Sonic immediately makes him not an example of The Lancer, because they don't actually have the character dynamic that signifies the trope, and likewise lacks the loyalty and close relationship that marks what the trope is about.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2023 at 8:53:18 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72036: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:53:34 AM

To be honest, the trope definition is kind of a mess and probably needs to be redefined because there's loads of contradictory information there that technically supports both of our points.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 20th 2023 at 11:53:58 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72037: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:54:52 AM

Looking over the page, I don't see many contradictions. The page is very clear about what it's about.

It helps that it has an introductory paragraph (the one you posted) that is pretty explicit about what the trope means.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2023 at 8:55:46 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72038: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:55:45 AM

Well the trope also describes lancers that can either staunch allies or somewhat dissenting towards their leaders, so which is it?

You have to read the whole thing instead of cherry picking very specific parts, is all

....Really? Pot shots?

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 20th 2023 at 11:56:27 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72039: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:55:55 AM

Both.

That's the trope. It's a character type that's both at once.

....Really? Pot shots?

To be fair, that was in response to you cherry picking a very specific part that was much more clear in context, but I agree that it was harsh and have already removed it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2023 at 8:58:36 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72040: Mar 20th 2023 at 8:58:53 AM

Does lacking one or the other automatically disqualify you?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#72041: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:00:43 AM

[up]In more maintained tropes, lacking one of two major components would, yes. But, as you said, the whole thing needs work.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72042: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:02:15 AM

Yes.

The trope is in essence the crossroads of Sour Supporter and Number Two, and a similar trope to Honest Advisor. It's a very close and staunch ally who is constantly at odds with the way the protagonist thinks and may even be contentious, yet is undeniably loyal and attached to the protag.

It's basically "the hero's sidekick (or one of them, at least) is also their biggest foil."

The picture of Luke and Han is a pretty good example. Harry Potter and Ron Weasley is a pretty good relatively modern example too.

I would guess it's probably an old theatre trope (most foil tropes are, tbh, especially ones that are about core relationships and character/dialogue dynamics) and that there's a different name for it whereas we just made one up - it's old enough and distinct enough that I wouldn't be surprised if that's where it's from.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2023 at 9:17:22 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72044: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:42:21 AM

  • The Power Boost animation can be toggled in the Options menu.
  • The Starfall Slot Machine can be toggled in the Options menu.
  • Cyber Space levels can be restarted mid-level.
  • When upgrading Sonic, multiple Koco can now be exchanged at once with the Elder and Hermit Koco.

Ah, sweet, sweet QoL.

The only thing this is missing is a way to go back to islands you've already completed.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2023 at 9:42:41 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#72045: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:43:33 AM

[up]I forget how, since it's been a while since I picked up the game, but you can switch islands already.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72046: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:46:34 AM

Ooooh, really? Did they add that later or was that always there?

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#72047: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:47:10 AM

AFAIK it was always in. I used it during my playthrough when the game just came out.

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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
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#72048: Mar 20th 2023 at 9:57:26 AM

I'm not surprised many tropes have been cut in the last few months, what with people finding out they are rather poorly defined or redundant.

And to be frank: Shadow doesn't strike me as The Lancer. I understand The Lance as a close companion of the hero who clashes with him on ocassion because they are equals in ability. Not surprisingly, this is close to The Rival (another trope that needs to become a super trope, as it's too broad).

But, looking back at Shadow in his "good days", he isn't a friend of Sonic. At all. He is antagonistic to him or respects him, but he never would be classified as a friend of his.

- Sonic Heroes: He sees him as a friendly competition.

- Battle:They openly clash.

- Shadow: Openly clash, with Shadow even siding with Black Doom out of petty competition.

- 06: The one game where "everybody loves Shadow", he isn't friendly with Sonic. Hell, their alliance is considered in-universe a strange occurrence.

- Chronicles: They clash because Shadow is too stubborn to work with anyone.

. Forces: Shadow did his own thing for six whole months until he decided to show up.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#72049: Mar 20th 2023 at 10:22:01 AM

You've always been able to go back to previous islands, the game just doesn't outright tell you, but it does show you in small print. If you go to the map, look at the bottom left corner, and it will show you what button to press to change islands. For Xbox controllers, it's Y (the button on top of the 4 button layout).
I didn't find out until after I'd completed the game, too.

Aww sweet! Boss Battle Rush mode! I wonder what level stats Sonic is at in that mode.

Also, does anyone else have a favorite Guardian? For me, it's SUMO.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 20th 2023 at 12:26:50 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72050: Mar 20th 2023 at 10:44:22 AM

Spider.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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