TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Go To

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71976: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:09:56 AM

I don't know if we can say that someone at Sonic Team is so incredibly attached to any particular backstory for Blaze in the same way they were attached to Shadow only having a very specific characterization that he usually didn't.

If anything, I think it was due to the opposite problem. Blaze's backstory got inconsistent because they wanted to keep using Blaze but couldn't think of a way to make her backstory keep lining up with the stories they wanted to include her in, so they decided it didn't matter. Shadow was a problem of them never letting go a particular concept for the character and making it matter too much.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71977: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:21:22 AM

In the context of the original subject, Sonic Team not really caring about Blaze's story is kind of the issue. In that they're perfectly fine changing certain details to get what they want, regardless if it aligns with that they already established.

That's why Blaze is in a much better position than Shadow imo. Because Blaze still has all of the essential parts of her story intact as opposed to trying to force her into a role she isn't suited for like they usually do with Shadow.

Like it's fun to speculate what they could do with her, but I wouldn't want it to be a reality cuz as a purple man once said.

"Reality is often disappointing".

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 19th 2023 at 12:22:43 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71978: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:24:34 AM

In general, the concept of rivals for Sonic has always been kinda janky. Like, Knuckles is the original rival, but they were never really rivals. Like. A rival is someone who is competing with you to try and achieve the same goal. Knuckles was Sonic's enemy until he became Sonic's ally.

Rivals work for Goku because, in his heart of hearts, Goku is an athlete. He has his eyes on the next horizon and he's eager to cross it, and his rivals are people who are trying to do the same. Everyone wants to be the greatest martial artist, and they are in direct competition with one another for that prize.

Sonic doesn't really have a goal. He wants to go fast and live his best life, and encourages everyone else to go fast and live their best lives. Paradoxically, Sonic can be very competitive in the moment, but there isn't really any overarching life goal to try and compete with him over. He competes in little ways moment-by-moment.

Like. He can be very competitive about his speed. But it's not a goal. He's not trying to be the fastest. He just is the fastest and he's very proud of that. Goku sees a strong guy and goes, "Oh boy, I can't wait to see how I measure up." Sonic sees a fast guy and goes, "Pfft, eat my dust, scrub!" And that's just. Like. That. The story isn't about his speed. His relationships with other characters aren't about trying to match his speed. He's just fast.

So despite having a myriad of rival characters to choose from with Shadow as the most rivalest, Sonic. Doesn't. Really. Do. Rivalships? Honest to Chaos rival relationships don't really work for him, and they get jankier the harder you try to cram them into that particular mold. Sonic has room for enemies and for allies in his life, but rivals pretty much just have to pick one.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 19th 2023 at 9:25:13 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71979: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:30:06 AM

For the sake of not going into semantics, I think the term Foils is a better description. It more accurately describes what you're talking about.

People just use "rivals" interchangeably but in practice, they're Foils. But I'm not about to challenge people's (wrong) lexicon since I understand what they mean when they use "rivals".

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71980: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:43:52 AM

Having a rival only makes sense in 2 situations; when the hero an the rival are trying to achieve the same goal, or if the hero sees the rival character as someone he needs to surpass in order to reach that goal. And the ultimate reason for any of this at all is to give either the hero or the rival character development over their rivalry itself.

Goku and Vegeta compete over their strength, but that (originally) lead to Vegeta conceding that Goku was better after sinking to his lowest to catch up to him. Ash and Gary are both trying to become Pokemon Masters, but Gary loses interest in direct Pokemon battling and becomes a researcher like his grandfather. Naruto wants to prove he's better than Sasuke, but Naruto himself starts to care less about that and is more invested in saving Sasuke from himself, etc.

In the sonic franchise itself Sonic only really has character development in western related works like the Archie comics, while the games present him as an Ideal Hero to act as a foil to other character to learn from. This also means he doesn't benefit from having a true rivalry, as either case he's never in a position where having a rival does anything for his character.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71981: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:45:43 AM

Generally speaking, Sonic simply is, and everyone else is just reacting to him being. Except Eggman, for whom Sonic routinely is, but aggressively in the direction of.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 19th 2023 at 9:46:33 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71982: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:49:20 AM

Me thinks Sonic Team doesn't understand how these archetypes are supposed to work and just threw them in because they were popular without any consideration.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 19th 2023 at 12:50:01 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#71983: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:51:35 AM

Well, they made a Vegeta and then just completely ignored what kind of personality a Vegeta is supposed to have in the first place, so...

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71984: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:54:34 AM

Shadow doesn't even act like Vegeta at all in Sonic Adventure 2...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#71985: Mar 19th 2023 at 9:56:48 AM

Hence, my comment that they completely ignored the personality a Vegeta is supposed to have.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71986: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:01:10 AM

Yea I was agreeing with you.

Come to think of it though, Vegeta was also supposed to die in the Saiyan arc and only came back on Toriyama's whim.

So maybe they are alike.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 19th 2023 at 1:02:10 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71987: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:13:16 AM

He was suppose to die at Freeza, not in his introduction...

That's where is arc would've ended if he didn't become the rival.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71988: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:19:38 AM

The weird thing about this topic is: Flynn is receiving that criticism, of him not caring enough about what is established and people fear he wants to change everything for the sake of whatever stories he want to tell.

Nevermind the fact Sonic Team already did this, and they themselves never set some of its concepts in stone. Origins finally said CD is after 2, and some fans were mad.

Hell, Hideo Kojima did this with every new game retconning something about the previous game. Solid being Big Boss's "son" is a retcon, for example.

And even if you get rid of Flynn, this will still happen. The Sonic fandom is no different from the Spider-man fandom.

If I had to compare, this is something Geoff Johns has been guilty of in DC Comics.

Edited by Tomodachi on Mar 19th 2023 at 10:21:57 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#71989: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:22:23 AM

Not to mention his predecessors at Archie (most infamously, Penders)

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71990: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:22:49 AM

Fans tend to be selective about this stuff.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71991: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:25:08 AM

One annoying fangirl even claimed Takashi Iizuka work can't count on the series, despite being a supervisor on the series, because "he never wrote for the series". He did, he wrote Shadow's game and the Rival series.

Selective bias, as we say.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#71992: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:47:01 AM

[up]Possibly but most likely probably not.

Well, they made a Vegeta and then just completely ignored what kind of personality a Vegeta is supposed to have in the first place, so...

Are we sure we're not getting a bit muddled on where the broad generalization about being a "Vegeta" is supposed to be coming from?

Black's got it right about how "Foil" is also a sufficient term and for somebody pretty driven by a goal and ruthless, that would make a neat contrast to somebody happy-go-lucky and carefree like Sonic, especially if he was supposed to die by SA 2. The Vegeta comparisons seems to be more from the fandom then any intent by the writers, never mind that archetypes very often shift from the original inspiration.

Hell, Hideo Kojima did this with every new game retconning something about the previous game. Solid being Big Boss's "son" is a retcon, for example.

What's our def of "retcon" here? The broadest one about any new information about the past we didn't get in previous games or "something that wasn't there but is now", even if there's not much room to say it wasn't there?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71993: Mar 19th 2023 at 10:55:33 AM

If it was just being a foil, it'd be fine. But Sega very clearly want Shadow to be the guy who fights Sonic every now and then regardless of any sense it makes.

The fact is, there's very little, if any reason for Shadow to oppose Sonic outside of very specific circumstances but hey, we gotta market that clout.

Its like how Dragon Ball pretends like Vegeta is still a rival to Goku despite the fact they've been on the same side for decades now and it's done only for marketing purposes.

Disagreements are fine, but oh man am I sick or Sonic vs. Shadow.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 19th 2023 at 1:56:33 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#71994: Mar 19th 2023 at 11:02:40 AM

They actually did say Vegeta is based upon Shadow. Much like Silver is based upon Trunks.

How they interpret Vegeta is the odd thing here. He's clearly not that much alike besides minor similarities(both being Saiyan, both having mostly similar abilities and often being on par with each other, one can easily outweigh the other in a game, and Shadow is pretty clearly ruthless like Vegeta is. Sonic is far more forgiving and willing to let things go). But they focus too much on some kind of rivalry that really isn't there, and as said before, they're foils, not rivals. Which makes sense. They both had different backgrounds and different beliefs.

Shadow?
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#71995: Mar 19th 2023 at 12:06:29 PM

Huh. This video pointed out that if you stomp three times in a row, it gives off a special area of effect attack, that can even do a lot of damage to bosses.

English is the poster's third language, so their grammar may be a bit hard to follow.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#71996: Mar 19th 2023 at 12:19:02 PM

I feel like that's a thing that only affects external media, the last time the Games went out of their way to have Sonic and Shadow fight was Generations.

Like Forces had a phantom illusion Shadow and went out of their way to not have you fight Shadow in that game.

Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#71997: Mar 19th 2023 at 12:27:06 PM

I never understood why some fans think that whatever Sonic Team or whoever else is working on the franchise had established for the Sonic canon is automatically not canon, despite the fact that Sonic Team is the one who wrote the canon for the franchise in the first place. Sure, Sonic Team could have done a better job at writing the canon or straightening out some inconsistencies in the canon. But having some fans declare that a particular story element in the games is not canon just because Sonic Team made that story line doesn't make any sense to me.

Edited by Rabbitearsblog on Mar 19th 2023 at 12:29:44 PM

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71998: Mar 19th 2023 at 12:28:18 PM

Again, selective bias.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#71999: Mar 19th 2023 at 12:32:41 PM

The various rivals for Sonic make more narrative sense if you look at them the other way around. That is, they aren't rivals for Sonic to overcome, Sonic is a rival for everyone else to overcome. Sonic is the Always Someone Better that keeps them from getting complacent. It makes Knuckles want to adventure and be a hero himself instead of just sitting on his island, or keeps Shadow from getting too cocky with his claim to being the ultimate lifeform, and so on. Sonic himself doesn't need to learn anything from his rivals because he already follows the philosophy of doing his best on everything and living life to its fullest, but his existence makes his rivals learn to do similar because of their desire to show up Sonic.

The thrust of a rivalry story with Sonic isn't as much "how will Sonic overcome this seemingly stronger opponent", it's "how will Sonic show this challenger the error of their ways and effect positive character development in them", and therefore once again impart the same themes to the player of basically "you should do your best and make every day count, just like Sonic".

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#72000: Mar 19th 2023 at 12:33:09 PM

Its like how Dragon Ball pretends like Vegeta is still a rival to Goku despite the fact they've been on the same side for decades now and it's done only for marketing purposes.

Disagreements are fine, but oh man am I sick or Sonic vs. Shadow.

Vegeta is still a rival to Goku, though. In the same sense that Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo are rivals to Goku. Goku is seeking to push his horizons and improve himself as a martial artist, and all five of them are seeking the same. For them, Goku is the ultimate obstacle that must be overcome on the path to greatness - and Goku, in turn, relishes opportunities to throw fists with them and see what they're capable of. This is what drives a rivalry.

The problem is that Shadow and Sonic have nothing of the sort. There is no grand objective that Sonic and Shadow are mutually pursuing, to which Sonic is an ever-present obstacle to Shadow. There is no field in which Sonic is the Gold Medal that Shadow must overcome if he is to truly be the greatest. No title or status that Shadow seeks and Sonic possesses, driving a perpetual rivalry.

So they have to contrive one reason after another for why Shadow and Sonic would fight this time. Sonic Team wants the characters permanently locked in a forever conflict with one another, but have provided no baked-in reason for their dynamic to be like that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 19th 2023 at 12:35:48 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Total posts: 84,033
Top