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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#71801: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:50:55 PM

Do Heroes 2 like a Lego game. Just have a list of static Abilities, each of which has a bunch of puzzles in the game that it can be used to overcome, and then each character has their own set of those Abilities. Like Tails can do Speed obstacles, Flight obstacles, and Tech obstacles. Knux can do Speed, Digging, and Power. Sonic can do Speed and Cutting. Etc. etc.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#71802: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:52:03 PM

Rouge should have been Power type.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71803: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:56:44 PM

In the early planning stages for Heroes, before they decided to bring Shadow back, they actually were planning for Team Rose to be an all-girl team consisting of Amy, Cream, and Rouge. So Rouge was planned to be a Power character at first. But then they brought Shadow back and team members got shuffled around.

Here's an idea. What if for a Heroes-like game, you could create your own team, and some characters could fit in multiple different slots. So Rouge could be a Flight or Power character, say Amy could be Speed or Power, Tails could be Speed or Flight, and such.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71804: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:58:18 PM

Kuro: Fair enough. If the game was specifically Heroes 2, then designing characters with that premise in mind makes sense.

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#71805: Mar 14th 2023 at 3:04:22 PM

[up][up]Allow the party to change at any time outside of levels and don’t lock anything to specific characters and that’d probably solve the forced replay problem of the original.

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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#71806: Mar 14th 2023 at 3:09:06 PM

[up][up][up]Now I'm actually curious what a hypothetical story for those three would be. Amy would chase Sonic, obviously, would Cream and Rouge be along for the ride just because it's better than sitting around bored?

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#71807: Mar 14th 2023 at 3:17:50 PM

I would guess something like, Cream is looking for Cheese's kidnapped brother like in the final game and Amy is trying to help her while also looking for Sonic. Rouge gets some kind of intel on what Eggman's doing or something valuable he has. Amy finds this out and forces Rouge into letting her and Cream tag along figuring she'll run into Sonic and get clues to Chocola's whereabouts if they go after Eggman.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71808: Mar 14th 2023 at 3:39:10 PM

I think the last decade+ of Sonic games has overplayed Tails' tinkering skills, if anything. He doesn't do anything anymore without help from gadgets, if he does anything at all besides dick around on his iPad the whole game, even though he's supposed to be almost as fast and athletic as Sonic is.

I wanted to address. This feels like an extension of what Sonic Team have been doing since Sonic Adventure. Slowly emphasizing the other traits of other characters and deemphasizing the abilities that are similar to Sonic.

So Tails gets more techy, and Knuckles is more of a brawler, etc etc.

I feel like it's to make Sonic's speed feel more special and the ones who are meant to rival that speed (so just Shadow and Metal Sonic).

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neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
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#71809: Mar 14th 2023 at 3:50:02 PM

The Mecha Sonic robots seem to be more build for battle rather than speed.

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electricmastro Since: Apr, 2015
#71810: Mar 14th 2023 at 5:30:16 PM

Still pretty surreal to me seeing Yuji Uekawa's redesign of Sonic in 8-bit like that. Makes me wonder if he'll ever be rendered like that again.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/screen_shot_2023_03_14_at_82852_pm.png

Chortleous she/her friend to the hooved (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
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#71811: Mar 14th 2023 at 6:11:18 PM

[up][up][up]In addition, I don't think Tails was ever meant to be 'almost as fast and athletic as Sonic'—wasn't his whole deal initially that he used his ingenuity (specifically his tails as makeshift rotor blades) to keep up rather than pure athletic ability? Playing up his tinkering feels in-line with that, though the execution could be better, granted.

Edited by Chortleous on Mar 14th 2023 at 8:16:33 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#71812: Mar 14th 2023 at 6:27:28 PM

No, the original Sonic 2 manual says nothing about that.

One day, a few days after landing on the island, Sonic noticed that someone was following him. When he turned around, he saw that it was a small fox. When the fox noticed Sonic, it rushed to hide behind a palm tree. However, when Sonic started running, the fox did its best to follow him. "Well, I guess I'll let him do what he wants." Sonic decided, not really caring.

"Miles Prower" is a little fox. Miles has two tails. That's why the animals on the island call him "Tails." Because of his two tails, he was often bullied. But after seeing Sonic come to the island, Miles changed. He has made up his mind. "I wanna be cool too!" It was then that Miles started chasing after Sonic all day.

One afternoon, Miles found a beautiful airplane on the beach. Miles, who loves machines and vehicles, ran up to it as fast as he could. The sleek body and sharp lines of the wings were a sight to behold. As he walked to the other side of the plane, his feet stopped moving, as if he was in shock. Sonic was taking a nap under the wing on the other side. Then, as Miles gently turned and walked back to the other side of the plane...

A flash of light glittered in the forest. It was followed by a huge explosion and a rising pillar of fire. Pebbles and splinters of wood rained down. Miles was almost blown away and rolled under the plane, his eyes fluttering as he tried to comprehend the situation. In his eyes, he saw a forest burning red and robots digging in the ground as if searching for something.

The explosions continued unabated and the flames covered the island. Miles, who had been staring blankly at this, turned his head to the side when he felt the presence of someone. There was Sonic, glaring at the burning forest.

"Darn it, Eggman!" As he muttered that, Sonic kicked up the sand and headed for the forest. Something had started. Something unthinkable. With this premonition in mind, Miles unconsciously started running after Sonic's back...

Tails also gets his own dedicated section of the manual

  • He admires and respects Sonic.
  • His head is full of thoughts of becoming like Sonic.
  • He loves Christmas and mint candy.
  • As you can see, he has goggle-eyes.
  • He loves to tinker with machines and has invented many things.
  • Driving a car or flying an airplane is his biggest specialty.
  • His favorite car is Lotus Super Seven.
  • He's always chasing after Sonic.

When he was little, everyone bullied him for his two tails. But thanks to Sonic, the two tails have become a "sign of vitality."

Because of his two tails, he was bullied by everyone when he was little and was timid, but meeting Sonic and striving to be like him made Miles's personality bright, energetic and positive.

Sonic doesn't seem to be paying attention to Miles, but he's actually looking at him sideways.

Tails is able to keep up with Sonic because he just can. He's had a lot of practice.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 14th 2023 at 6:30:15 AM

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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71813: Mar 14th 2023 at 7:11:15 PM

Tails' top speed running animation in every game does have him using his tails to propel himself forward, to where he's more hovering than running. But I can't imagine beating your tails fast enough to hover forward at high speeds is that much less physical intensive than running that speed with your legs. Plus he can also jumps about as high as Sonic can, and he can also destroy robots by hurling himself into them at high speeds.

Point is, in the old games Tails had basically the same capabilities as Sonic, he just ran a little slower (?) but was able to fly, which had treated as kind of like the easy mode of many games. A game here and there were he's more focused on tech (like Adventure 2) doesn't change that, but after more than a decade where he's barely got to do anything that isn't tech-related makes him seem less like Sonic's sidekick (which is what he basically was) and more like a tag-along kid who's sometimes useful for non-action stuff because he's a nerd.

On the subject of Tails in modern Sonic games, I saw it pointed elsewhere that in an early scene in Generations when the Time Eater appears, Classic Tails just looks curiously with Classic Sonic, but Modern Tails straight up cowers behind Modern Sonic. And it's like, come on, seriously?
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/1607459539985.png https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/1607459539986.png

Edited by KuroBaraHime on Mar 14th 2023 at 10:12:23 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#71814: Mar 14th 2023 at 7:15:33 PM

I would say at least there was some consistency...

But Sonic Colours -> Sonic Generations -> Sonic Lost World -> Sonic Forces...

Tails' emotional response to stressful situations was entirely back n forth.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71815: Mar 14th 2023 at 10:30:26 PM

In any case, I don't know if "he used his smarts to figure out a way to run almost as fast as Sonic so he can fight alongside him, so it makes sense for him to stop doing that and refocus on using his smarts on something completely different" really tracks.

But I think in the end, there's nothing stopping him from doing both.

Tangentially, it's amusing that Tails' speed was on Ian Flynn's incredibly unsubtle laundry list of gripes about Tails' character in recent years that composed his section of Frontiers' plot.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 14th 2023 at 10:31:43 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71816: Mar 14th 2023 at 10:36:46 PM

You can just take it as "Tails wants to utilize his own strengths than just relying on the ones he got from Sonic" which is actually something the comics did in one arc. In fact, Tails literally saves Sonic's life from Zavok, not through his skills but through trickery and deception....which makes sense cuz he's a fox... Suddenly Tails as The Smart Guy makes a bit more sense to me now.

I feel like Tails' biggest problem isn't merely that he's smart at the expense of being a more action oriented character. He actually serves a better foil for Soniic if they have different attributes as opposed to both doing the same thing. The real problem is that the games don't use Tails for anything but exposition dumping. Literally all he does is just explain things for the sake of the player or just invent some gadget to move the plot along.

They really need to come up with more unique ways ot using his traits.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#71817: Mar 14th 2023 at 11:05:50 PM

He's trapped by his own iconicity. Sonic & Tails are the central duo of the brand. He's so baked into the franchise that even when Sonic Team freaked out and fired the entire supporting cast post-06, they kept Tails. He's the Luigi to Sonic's Mario. The Robin to Sonic's Batman.

And. Well. That's good for Tails because it makes him inseparable from the brand. Other characters like Shadow, Rouge, Cream, and even Amy and Knux can buzz off from time to time. But there's almost always a place here for Tails.

But it's less good for Tails in that he's trapped by his own iconic role. Tails finally stepped out of Sonic's shadow and became his own hero in Sonic Adventure. That was 25 years ago, and he's still just showing up to be Sonic's sidekick. Frontiers tried to take a mulligan on "Tails steps out of Sonic's shadow and becomes his own hero," but will it actually take? Probably not.

Tails can have those big moments of self-actualization all he wants but, at the end of the day, that's not his role. His role is to be attached by the hip to Sonic. The writers aren't actually going to let him grow out of that.

But developing his gadgeteering at least gives him new ways of fulfilling his role.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 14th 2023 at 11:06:27 AM

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#71818: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:27:04 AM

come on, seriously?
Hard agree. I didn't even notice that while playing the game. Tails is and has always been my favorite character in the franchise, but his treatment there in Generations and especially Forces was insulting. I agree with Flynn hammering home how out of character and WRONG those scenes were. Even in Colors (console) he wasn't that much of a Non-Action Guy, and was ready and willing to take on the final boss before Sonic "saved" him (which also rubbed me the wrong way). ...Hell, imagine if beating Colors unlocked Tails as a playable character without access to the Wisps. Forces should've just had Tails be playable instead of "Classic Sonic" and it would've solved a lot of that game's problems except for the overly short levels.

The Robin to Sonic's Batman.

Funnily enough, I was just watching a video about all the different potential Batman successors, and I realized that even though all the many Robins grow up in some way, of course that's not in the direction of replacing Bruce. And there are way too many Batman supporting characters. Over time in the comics alone there have been 5 main Robins, 4 main Batgirls, 2 main Batwomen, 2 Batwings, 2 Questions, and that's not even getting into Alfred, Azrael, Terry, Selina, and everyone else to take on the various Bat Family identities. Shit, I'd never even heard of The Signal or Goliath today. Or that even Clayface has at one point joined the "reformed villains become heroes" club.

As far as comic comparisons go, I'd want a graphic (shirt, steam profile background, etc.) of Tails giving Sonic a lift on one side, and Sam Wilson giving Steve Rogers a lift on the other.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 10:34:30 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71819: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:38:02 AM

I agree with Flynn hammering home how out of character and WRONG those scenes were.

This isn't what happened though. What Flynn did was acknowledged and recontextualized those scenes as Tails isn't always gonna be brave and step up.

Sometimes his fear and anxiety will take over, because he is still a child at the end of the day and children aren't always going to overcome their fear and that's ok.

...its pretty obviously there as a handwave for his inconsistent writing, but that was probably the best way to handle it as opposed to just pretending like it never happened and actively throwing shade at it.

It always bugged me when Sonic fans get up in arms whenever the cast show anything less than being 100% perfect all of time.

Sure, there's inconsistent writing but then there's just being mad at a character having a reasonable flaw.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 15th 2023 at 11:40:39 AM

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#71820: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:41:40 AM

In both the IDW comics and Frontiers the writing spelled out that Forces was very inconsistent with who the character really is.

And it's not asking the character be perfect. It's not even a reasonable flaw. It's a major Out-of-Character Moment to the point that Sonic, and fans, can list off several moments that were in character, for contrast.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 10:43:01 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71821: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:43:44 AM

By acknowledging that there was nothing wrong with how he acted in of itself...not ignoring it altogether.

Its not out of character for someone to show fear...

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 15th 2023 at 11:45:32 AM

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#71822: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:45:11 AM

Who said it should be ignored? It obviously happened, it was just very out of character.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71823: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:45:55 AM

Its not out of character for someone to be afraid...

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#71824: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:52:00 AM

You're not hearing what is being said. Fear alone isn't out of character, and no one said it was. It's not even out of character for Tails to hide behind Sonic when met with a specific thing he's afraid of (lightning).

It is out of character for Tails specifically to spend months out of contact with his friends looking for anyone new to save him, even in the very specific circumstance where he thought Sonic died right before his eyes. Because remember what he did the first time that happened? He took on Eggman and completed the mission at hand, more determined than ever. He wouldn't let Sonic get beaten by a 5 on one without actually stepping up to help, render himself unreliable to his friends, didn't turn his back on a known enemy with his head in his hands screaming "Sonic, help me!" without lifting a finger to help himself, or stand on the sidelines when literally everyone else in the final battle, even mooks, is fighting someone.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 11:06:11 AM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
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#71825: Mar 15th 2023 at 8:55:06 AM

Different circumstances though.

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