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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71776: Mar 14th 2023 at 12:06:26 PM

Because the original question was what further teams could be made if they made another game like Sonic Heroes, which is a concept that inherently requires that playable characters be put in one of the 3 categories from Heroes.

Obviously this whole conversation doesn't matter if another team game like Heroes isn't made.

KaoticKanine from Vania of Pencils Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#71777: Mar 14th 2023 at 12:10:49 PM

[up][up] Hence why I said if. If Marine's power turned out to be Hydrokinesis, it still fits with the Power Types for the reason I outlined. If it turned out to be a form of Ki Manipulation instead, well that works even more for a Power Type.

And excuse us for trying to fit each Sonic character into a system that was established in a main console game, with the express purpose of organizing the growing cast into defined roles based on the abilities of the first three playable characters. Said system being re-used for side games after the fact.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#71778: Mar 14th 2023 at 12:59:21 PM

We could make Marine the flight character and have her use her hydrokinesis like FLUDD in Mario Sunshine.

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#71779: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:09:24 PM

[up] If Marine really does know hydrokinesis, then she, Chaos, and Kitsunami could team up to form the Torrential Trio.

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#71780: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:12:17 PM

Hold on, Kitsuwho now?

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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#71781: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:16:28 PM

A character from the IDW comic.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71782: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:18:51 PM

[up][up][up][up] But like I said, some characters are not so cleanly defined as such.

Blaze has been both a speed and a power character in different games for instance.

And I'd say it is shoehorning since you're homogenizing the cast into defined roles; everyone has to be a designated Speed, Flight or Power character which limits the type of characters you can make.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 14th 2023 at 4:19:50 AM

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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#71783: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:35:59 PM

I don't see why it matters. You can have the characters be in certain roles for a Heroes-like game, and then still do whatever you want with them in later games.

Tony-Sharx Megalodons are the best kind of furry. from ACME Nation Since: Mar, 2020
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#71784: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:41:59 PM

Maybe interchangeable classes? Maybe take a page or two out of Chronicles or fighting games; one character, two roles they can fill? Maybe custom compositions? This is usually where creative liberties come into play when the end result is meant to be a worthwhile experience for the viewer/gamer/controller.

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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
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#71785: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:53:46 PM

...Blaze and Silver are defined as Speed and Fly types in the Riders series. The inherent problem with using them in a Heroes setting is that there is no third wheel for them, which is why TSR used Vector as a substitute.

It makes sense, as Blaze and unfortunately Silver are much more popular than Espio and Charmy.

Not even the comics know who to pair them with. Archie paired Blaze with Amy and Cream; Silver was never part of a trio to my knowledge, with the closest being an alliance with Whisper, as Silver has never met Marine in any official medium.

Unfortunately Marine just...never even has a defined "type". She isn't speed, she clearly isn't fly, and much less power. Marine is just a muggle with a Deus ex Machina power up.

Edited by Tomodachi on Mar 14th 2023 at 1:58:03 AM

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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71786: Mar 14th 2023 at 1:56:32 PM

Well, 06 did give each hedgehog a couple companions each, so technically Silver was in a trio with Blaze and Amy, but the three were never actually together all at once. (Silver was separated from Blaze for the entire time he was hanging out with Amy.)

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#71787: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:05:09 PM

06 also didn't do the Heroes triangle, so Amy instead got stealth sections and the power to turn invisible.

Tony-Sharx Megalodons are the best kind of furry. from ACME Nation Since: Mar, 2020
Megalodons are the best kind of furry.
#71788: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:11:29 PM

But doesn't Marine have an itch for building marine vehicles like ships, jet skis and boats? Is it a stretch to consider using her smarts to build her way onto a Heroes roster? If this is about having a lack of super powers, again, a little imagination goes a long way.

It works well for Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark.

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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
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#71789: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:22:49 PM

Tails is a tinkerer and his Heroes incarnation has none of the tinkerer personality in his moveset.

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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#71790: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:25:24 PM

[up]He did create the Dummy Ring Bomb, for what it's worth.

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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71791: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:33:00 PM

Whether Tails has aspects of his mechanics skills in his moveset is irrelevant to whether hypothetically Marine would. Like if Marine uses machines as part of her kit does that somehow steal Tails' "job" as the tinkerer? No, I don't think so. And since Marine has never been playable before, maybe you could say Marine needs to the boost from machines to keep up while Tails doesn't.

I think the last decade+ of Sonic games has overplayed Tails' tinkering skills, if anything. He doesn't do anything anymore without help from gadgets, if he does anything at all besides dick around on his iPad the whole game, even though he's supposed to be almost as fast and athletic as Sonic is.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71792: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:33:03 PM

The thing is Marine's whole deal is that she lacks any special skills and overcompensates with her ego.

Not that she can't acquire new skills but just being able to now create things on that scale is a huge leap.

@Kuro: I'm talking about character design right now tbh.

Like how every speedster has to be a similar build to Sonix.

Everyone flyer needs an appendage or an animal capable of flight.

And everyone power character needs to have a large frame.

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#71793: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:36:00 PM

Knuckles doesn't have a large frame.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71794: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:36:48 PM

The exception that proves the rule.

And even then, he is burlier than Sonic and Tails, even if only a little. And I think it says a lot that his two biggest redesigns give him a larger body size overall to emphasize his strength.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 14th 2023 at 5:39:11 AM

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#71795: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:40:00 PM

He used to be burlier...

That doesn't really apply after his redesign, the only thing noting his strength are his giant hands.

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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71796: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:40:12 PM

There's no reason to worry about character design being restricted by these Heroes types existing. Silver doesn't cleanly fit any type (although he's been retroactively fitted as Flight) and he came after it was a thing. I seriously doubt anyone at Sonic Team is thinking about needing a character to fit into these types that are only relevant for Heroes and Riders (an old singular game and a dead spin-off series) when making new characters.

Also, most characters have builds similar to Sonic. It's kind of just the artstyle. (And asset reuse. Mighty's Chaotix sprites were literally just a slight redraws of Sonic's sprites.)

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#71797: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:42:57 PM

I mean that's kind of my point. Not every character needs (or should) to be designed for a Sonic Heroes trio.

And trying to retrofit them into it ain't it either.

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neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
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#71798: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:46:56 PM

For all the fact Mighty was a replacement for Sonic which would make him speed, both Sonic The Comic and Archie Sonic turned him into a super strong character which would make him power.

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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
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#71799: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:47:40 PM

[up][up]No, characters don't need that. But the question that started this conversation was, "what if they made Heroes 2, what's a new team they could add?"

It sounds like you just dislike the question because you dislike the idea that characters might be getting squashed into archetypes, but the way you're arguing against it makes it sound like you're arguing against the suggested answers when you really want to argue against the premise of the question itself.

[up]Well, his name is Mighty, so that's not surprising later creators made that association.

Edited by KuroBaraHime on Mar 14th 2023 at 5:49:16 AM

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#71800: Mar 14th 2023 at 2:49:25 PM

I mean, trying to retrofit characters was what the first Heroes did anyway, particularly for Rouge.

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