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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71651: Mar 12th 2023 at 9:55:14 AM

Been thinking a bit about Agent Stone from the movie. He's a lot like Sticks in that he's a really fun character, but works because the setup is built to accomodate his presence whereas his niche is already more or less already filled in the games. Even if we didn't already have Orbot and Cubot, the existence of SAGE completely makes someone like Stone superfluous, sadly.

Much like Sticks, I wouldn't be surprised if he got a nod but didn't outright appear.

That said, if they ever do another plot that involves the government(s) of Sonic's world, it'd be neat to bring him in as - like - a mole Eggman has on the inside.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 12th 2023 at 9:55:34 AM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71652: Mar 12th 2023 at 9:56:58 AM

Games or animation?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71653: Mar 12th 2023 at 10:16:21 AM

NVM

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 12th 2023 at 10:16:31 AM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71654: Mar 12th 2023 at 2:23:46 PM

Frontiers spoilers.

I love the music of the final boss of Frontiers. I feel the melancholic tone symbolizes the tragic fate of the Ancients, but the fact you can't truly defeat Death; hence why Sage has to make a sacrifice.

The composer compares the tone with Forces final boss, that starts slowly too, but Forces ends with a triumphant tone, which of courses symbolizes the forces of good stopping evil and taking the planet back from Eggman.

Edited by Tomodachi on Mar 12th 2023 at 3:24:43 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Dictionaryman616 Since: Mar, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#71655: Mar 12th 2023 at 3:45:17 PM

It sounds almost exactly like the outro from a series called Meta Runner. And what Meta Runner and Sonic Frontiers has in common is a digital aesthetic with melancholic instruments.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#71656: Mar 12th 2023 at 4:36:43 PM

Yeah, as much as Stone would be fun in some games, he'd have to have careful planning applied to make the context work.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71657: Mar 12th 2023 at 4:48:06 PM

Introducing Stone would make Orbot and Cubot redundant, but they kinda suck anyway. I'm okay with them being made redundant, which Sage threatens to do already.

I think there's room in Team Eggman for both Stone and Sage.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#71658: Mar 12th 2023 at 4:49:17 PM

Sage and Stone have different roles in service to Eggman.

Sage controls robots, Stone makes coffee.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71659: Mar 12th 2023 at 4:54:07 PM

The combination of SAHE and Orbot + Cubot is what does it in for Stone, imo, because Stone basically combines what all three of them do into one.

He provides a comedic, often dumber but occasionally witty foil for Eggman so that Eggman can show of the more fun sides of his personality and/or exposit at, which is what Orbot and Cubot do. But he also provides an efficient and competent loyal underling who takes care of the logistics of Eggman's plans to allow them to work efficiently, while letting Eggman show of the more serious villain sides of his personality, which is what SAGE does.

In a world where we only had one of either SAGE or Orbot + Cubot, I think Stone would've worked. But in a world where we have both, he doesn't really have much to do.

Heck, even the unique quirk that Stone is a minion Eggman actually kinda-sorta cares about is overshadowed by SAGE, a minion Eggman explicitly cares about.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 12th 2023 at 4:57:20 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71660: Mar 12th 2023 at 4:56:37 PM

Eggman needs more henchmen clearly...

Orbot & Cubot aren't enough.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71661: Mar 12th 2023 at 4:58:41 PM

I think with the addition of SAGE to the Orbot & Cubot Eggman's covered for minions now. He's got minions who can provide humor and minions who can provide drama, and if the writers ever want a minion who can be a threat to him they've got Metal in their back pocket.

And Infinite I guess but fuck that guy.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71662: Mar 12th 2023 at 5:00:05 PM

He could use a battle minion, a cool enough looking bot that gets his ass kicked every game

Its not like Metal shows up as often tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71663: Mar 12th 2023 at 5:22:22 PM

He shows up enough and that is essentially the role the Comics put him into; the perennial jobber who people love anyway.

Why do people say Shadow is Vegeta when Metal is the one who loses all of the time?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#71664: Mar 12th 2023 at 5:27:36 PM

Because Shadow acts more like Vegeta than Metal (mandates weren't helping)?

Like with Metal Sonic, you get a sense of professionalism that you wouldn't get with Vegeta.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71665: Mar 12th 2023 at 5:45:43 PM

Shadow is pretty clearly filling the role of The Lancer: The smug and dickish antihero counterpart to Sonic with an axe to grind against him personally, but who has all of the same powers that he does and fights all the same enemies poorly.

Which is Vegeta's role.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 12th 2023 at 5:46:51 AM

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#71666: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:01:07 PM

Eggman had been getting a pair of bumbling robotic henchmen for ages, and it took until Colors to have them in the games.

Yeah, I know Orbot was in Unleashed, but, he basically was there to take jabs at an Eggman who had WON IN THE OPENING CUTSCENE. No seriously, the sass was fun, but Fridge Logic kinda makes it work worse and worse.

The 2 bumbling henchmen dynamic works well enough, but damn if those 2 don't have the least appropiate bodies for general usage. Robot Butler is workable, but having those 2 as stuff that pops up out of Eggman's control consoles... Eh.

We now have Sage as the Voice with an Internet Connection and non-physical roles, plus being Mad Scientist's Beautiful Daughter in a sense. Metal Sonic is around as a Hyper-Competent Sidekick who is throughly brutal and efficient at stuff that isn't "beating Sonic", despite being physically superior and built to do that very thing...

Can't help but think that the worst thing going for Orbot and Cubot is that their body shape doesn't really allow them to do much.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71667: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:16:16 PM

Big climactic battle with Eggman only for him to pull the rug out from under you and reveal the ULTIMATE Sonic-destroying super-weapon. This whole time, he's just been stalling while the final touches are put on his masterpiece.

Eggman laid out on the ground when suddenly the ground shakes and a hangar opens to reveal Stone piloting this new ultimate weapon.

  • Eggman: That's right, Sonic! It's too late for you and for the plot now! While you've been wasting your time, my ultimate masterpiece is complete! With the flick of a switch, I can destroy you. With the push of the right buttons, the world will be mine!
  • Sonic: (sarcastic smug) O.o
  • Stone: We've got you now, Sonic!
  • Eggman: This is the end for you. All I have to do is.... All I have to...
  • Sonic: I'm listening.
  • Eggman: Wait a second, why am I down here being the bait and he's up there?
  • Stone: ... Hey boss? Why am I up here and you're down there?
  • Eggman: Oh crackers.

Cue big final boss fight with Stone piloting the unstoppable weapon poorly while Eggman flies around in his Eggmobile futilely trying to shout instructions to him through the cockpit screen.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71668: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:18:43 PM

Like with Metal Sonic, you get a sense of professionalism that you wouldn't get with Vegeta.

That's not professionalism, he literally cannot talk.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#71669: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:20:39 PM

I do think it does make some sense that Eggman has lackeys to do basic work and presumably lord his genius over while not putting them in too important a role or relying on them in capturing/hindering Sonic. Orbot and Cubot are actually fairly practical as far as comedic henchman go; loyal to their boss, don't really mess up plans, and even sass and/or annoying remarks around Eggman are fairly restrained.

Edited by BorneAgain on Mar 12th 2023 at 9:21:26 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71670: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:24:58 PM

There's a bit of fridge logic with Orbot and Cubot as you start questioning why exactly does Eggman keep around two henchmen that are useless. In AOSTH, he puts up with Scratch and Grounder because they're too incompetent to actually pose a threat to him and uses them as distractions for Sonic.

Orbot and Cubot literally don't serve any practical function for Eggman, something Sage and Stone operate on.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#71671: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:27:56 PM

Because the "rival" archetype that Vegeta pioneered isn't defined by only one trait of losing (and that being a trait of his is up for some significant debate)?

Your Sasukes, your Bakugos, your Seto Kaibas and Jack Atlases and Manjoume Juns, what defines them most as rivals, in my opinion, are character dynamics, the personal and influential relationship they have to the protagonist, carrying a parallel, either through abilities or background, that's colored a shade darker by an "edgier" personality/character and initial antagonism against the underdog that, by the end, shifts into...how do I put it?

They may not seem like they like the protagonist but they do end up respecting them and become willing to put their lives in their hands. It's not the warmest relationship but it is a strong one and you can almost be certain that, deep down, the rival is glad that they did meet in this lifetime. (Typing this, I realize that I just wrote a basis for "rivalshipping".)

I know I've seen some Vegeta favoritism years ago but nowadays, it feels like the pendulum has swung in the other direction so far as to be another extreme of it's own.

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 12th 2023 at 6:32:38 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71672: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:35:38 PM

...Ya know when I asked that question, I was being mostly facetious. I'll just use the Joking Mode pot next time.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#71673: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:36:41 PM

[up]It did not come off like it was being facetious or part of a joke and I had seen similar statements said seriously. My B.

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 12th 2023 at 6:39:00 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71674: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:43:40 PM

Its fine.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71675: Mar 12th 2023 at 6:55:31 PM

Shadow wasn't Vegeta, as Vegeta never stole the spotlight that much as Goku was still the hero while the supporting cast (Krillin and Gohan) could still shine.

Shadow was Seto Kaiba: guy who essentially got a whole filler plot line for himself, and was the second protagonist during the time.

I mean, why else are Tails, Knuckles and Amy a bunch of meaningless extras in the games Shadow has protagonism?

So of course that now he is no longer relevant the rival dynamic was changed. And Shadow isn't as fun as Kaiba, people just meme him to be one.

And Silver is, I dunno, Axel from Megaman or Sai from Naruto. Nobody gives a shit after their debut.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

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