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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#71601: Mar 9th 2023 at 6:19:47 AM

It feels simple to me; the product was created to be a Japanese-style one, with tropes related to it, etc.

It evolved since then. There's nothing wrong with Sonic being based upon Dragonball at all. It only keeps light references for the most part, as in the total amount is light(with Sonic being heavily based upon Goku, Chaos Emeralds being the Dragon Balls, Super Sonic being a Super Saiyan, and Silver being Trunks. A lot of things like various rival stuff isn't just a Dragonball thing anyway. Sonic isn't actually as powerful as Shadow, for instance. He just has more flexibility and forms, but the other is still blatantly the strongest Hedgehog in existence).

Besides that, the ensemble cast only at most can be decently compared here and there to the DB cast. Amy has some similarities to Bulma(being crazy and clingy, and very motherly), Tails to Krillin(both are on the weaker/normal side of the core heroes, but also awesome in their own way, and have special factors that allow them to fly. Other humans can't fly, while Tails has his, well, tails), Knuckles to Piccolo(classic rivals, both actually come from an egg, both are overall heroic but pragmatic at the end of the day), and Shadow to Vegeta(the other rival, having some traumatic background, effectively a mirror copy of the hero. ...At first).

The thing about the villains is they don't blend that well. Dr. Gero and Eggman are kind of similar, but only in their profession. Albeit, in the US version, Eggman also becomes part robotic, but that's more of a coincidence. They're robotics experts. Similarities mainly end there. The E-Series style has a slight similarity to the Androids in terms of naming scheme(with numbers) and proper names, as well as using living beings as sources(at least for some? It's unclear if that's for all), but those are still fairly different.

They're still so clearly different it hurts. Having influence isn't that odd. DB is highly popular and all~

Shadow?
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#71602: Mar 9th 2023 at 6:34:12 AM

Fun fact, Sonic and Shadow are repeatedly stated again and again to be equal in speed, power, and ability (though speed is the most common mention).

Also it was recently learnt that Shadow was, in fact, explicitly inspired by Vegeta.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#71603: Mar 9th 2023 at 6:36:28 AM

They show otherwise in a lot of games and adaptions that Shadow is blatantly superior. Sonic has more potential in comparison.

...And huh, they finally told us what was pretty obvious? Good. Well, at least that's one more thing to add to the list of "direct influences" instead of theories.

Shadow?
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71604: Mar 9th 2023 at 6:37:01 AM

I mean, there used to be more youtuber reviews getting posted, but certain users had some choice words for them, which were echoed in this very conversation

I feel like we can stand to be a bit more tolerant to the viewpoints of certain youtubers.

Some of us are very....hostile to people thay we don't agree with, going up to one of the initial reactions to the video I posted.

Its why I opted not to post any more videos if it's going to set people off like that as that wasn't the intention of me doing so.

[up] In terms of lore; Sonic & Shadow are dead even. Shadow only looks superior because he just had more shit on top of the Sonic related powers he has.

Ita pretty hilarious how they've kept Shadow roughly on par with Sonic but Knuckles kind of fell to the wayside.

Another Dragon Ball parallel I guess.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 9th 2023 at 9:39:24 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#71605: Mar 9th 2023 at 6:53:36 AM

Yet, seeing how last year both Piccolo and Knuckles were given plenty of love, we can hope... tongue

And, for the record, I don't really have an actual issue with the Archie comics. I just don't care much for its original content, and vocal fans have really soured them on me. IDW, on the other hand, I like. Just like I enjoyed Sonic X.

I like these videogames and stuff related to them, so to speak.

Edited by Eriorguez on Mar 9th 2023 at 3:58:22 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71606: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:17:27 AM

I don't mind a lot of the Western Sonic products, but they're definitely too far removed from the core traits that I associate with Sonic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71607: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:19:44 AM

So essentially the fandom, well-intentioned or not, soured a lot of ours opinions.

It tracks. I'll share Pariah story videos when the time comes, though. Don't we share Game Apologist videos from time to time?

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#71608: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:54:08 AM

I'm fine with a lot of Archie's original stuff, but whenever they tried to do game stuff it was always a little off. Their adventure adaptation still confuses me to this day.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71609: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:56:20 AM

That's not a shock. They'd been doing their own thing for years, then they were suddenly forced to start adapting the game stories, and had to make changes to characters to fascilitate that.

Should have done a clean break. Would have led to less random age ups for pink Hedgehogs and lobotomies for bees.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71610: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:57:57 AM

I remember reading it. I think it was written by both Bollers and Penders.

They had to find a way to explain how Station Square existed in Mobius, and Penders had to do mental gymnastics to explain how Tikal's tribe was a thing, as it contradicted his whole canon. And he found a way to put controversial elements in it with the cat country, or Knuckles overshadowing Super Sonic.

Adventure 2 by comparison was downright skipped.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#71611: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:01:51 AM

vocal fans have really soured them on me.

I absolutely understand that. Both in this franchise and others.

Don't we share Game Apologist videos from time to time?

I like his stuff. I'm just now reluctant to share because you never know who you're going to set off.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 9th 2023 at 10:02:51 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71612: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:10:09 AM

Its kind of ridiculous that we even need to walk on egg shells posting videos because we could possibly upset someone for (checks notes) having an opinion that you disagree with.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 9th 2023 at 11:14:55 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#71613: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:11:01 AM

Frankly if you're too bothered by the video to have a respectful conversation, it's probably a good idea for your own mental health to log off.

This isn't specifically in regards to this video, or anyone who spoke about this video, but moreso a good rule of thumb in general.

Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#71614: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:31:39 AM

So I was wondering: how come there's not a Pariah discussion thread in the New Media section of TV Tropes forum? There's one for Game Apologist, so why not Pariah or any other Sonic content creator?

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#71615: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:32:10 AM

Changing the convo, here's a picture from 2003.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/screenshot_1816.png

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71616: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:33:07 AM

2003 at its edgiest or so.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Tony-Sharx Megalodons are the best kind of furry. from ACME Nation Since: Mar, 2020
Megalodons are the best kind of furry.
#71617: Mar 9th 2023 at 8:33:16 AM

You know going back on that fan game topic, I have to admit that I've never tried any of the fan games as I grew up. I find it really fascinating how different each game and fan dev supposedly tackles the balance between platforming and speed. I only played the official SEGA drops under the pretense that Sonic Team were the only ones who understood what made a Sonic game work, at the time.

Knowing that one of the devs(was it Yuji Naka?) were influenced by speedrunning Mario stages, I always pondered what made platforming such a sticking point in the long run. As a kid I wasn't given any context beyond "he's fast, go fast, end it fast." It never occurred to me that I needed to repeatedly venture through the game to develop muscle memory to be good at it.(at least not until I picked up fighting games during college)

I owned Donkey Kong 64, Mario 64, Sunshine and Starfox Adventures on Game Cube but gave up on those really early in the session likely because I was bored of platforming. Sonic games gave me pathways to which I only needed to mitigate the risk of enemies and hazards. I was(and still am) into racing games and action sports like SSX and Burnout. Playing Sonic just blended better with my taste.

What makes platforming so important? (I guess is what I'm trying to understand.)

Certified, self-appointed Sonic Visionary
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71618: Mar 9th 2023 at 9:43:34 AM

What exactly is the difference between the Japanese and American influences in Sonic?

I never really noticed that.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 9th 2023 at 9:43:40 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71619: Mar 9th 2023 at 9:46:44 AM

Japanese: Carefree attitude and determined demeanor.

American: Wisecracker with a heart of gold.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71620: Mar 9th 2023 at 9:49:11 AM

That's not even close and it only goes into characterization and its surface level at that.

[up][up] Its exactly what it sounds like; if you've watched some amount of Anime, then some influences are more obvious.

Miyazaki films, Dragon Ball, and almost any Anime with Shinto influences all in some way serve as a foundation for Sonic.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 9th 2023 at 12:53:11 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71621: Mar 9th 2023 at 10:09:15 AM

Some of the characterization quirks make more sense in Japanese, too.

Shadow is comparable with, say, Sasuke and Vegeta; Amy can be compared with some Hugtto characters. However, these don't always translate well due to culture clash and subtle language.

For example, Vegeta is a rude individual, what with him saying "Ore" while Shadow uses the more polite "Boku". If I had to compare, Shadow talks like an Affably Villain, while Vegeta as a straight up bad guy.

It is odd to say Shadow has been misunderstood by Western writers and fans mostly because he is a difficult character to understand due the language barrier. For a similar example, there's Goku in DBZ who makes better sense in Japanese.

Edited by Tomodachi on Mar 9th 2023 at 10:18:37 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71622: Mar 9th 2023 at 10:15:39 AM

It should be noted that the difference and nuances between eastern Sonic and western Sonic aren't always immediately obvious and can be extremely hard to understand.

And yes, Pariah admits that his perspective isn't all encompassing either.

[up]This is an obvious one tho; yea a lot of people peg Shadow as a Vegeta type of rival and while the latter is an influence (and you'd be dumb to deny that) its only half true.

And their respective pronouns illustrate that; Shadow uses the much more polite "Boku" as mentioned, reserved for very young boys or men that wanna be seen as humble while Vegeta, being thr angry hypermasculine manlet that he is, uses "Ore".

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 9th 2023 at 1:22:26 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71623: Mar 9th 2023 at 10:23:37 AM

I will say this here and now, though: just because there are characterization quirks that aren't fully translated when the work leaves Japan doesn't mean the Japanese written stories are some misunderstood masterpieces or any of that crap. It just means the translations were subpar.

For example: 06 translation is very faithful to the Japanese version. Which would explain why the dialogue is so...undercooked? Yeah, let's go with it.

[up] Yeah, and even then, the perception of what Shadow is is full of fanon too.

Can't win them all, I guess.

Edited by Tomodachi on Mar 9th 2023 at 10:26:26 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
neoamon Mr from Planet Mobius S.T.C. (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Mr
#71624: Mar 9th 2023 at 10:31:27 AM

Meanwhile the Uk Sonic was a jerkass who created Robotnik, to stop an army of thousands of Metallixes (Metal Sonics).

"May your heart be your guiding key"
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#71625: Mar 9th 2023 at 10:33:21 AM

Japanese Sonic = Action anime about a wandering hero who personifies untamed freedom and drive to reach new heights, who fights against a wannabe dictator, and along the way influences other characters into changing for the better.

American Sonic = Wacky kids cartoon about a rebellious teenager with attitude who uses superpowers to fight a grumpy old boomer who wants to make the world his lawn and tell everyone to get off it, and along the way learns lessons about friendship and responsibility.


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