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RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#71426: Feb 27th 2023 at 4:23:35 PM

wild mass guessI think that the End could be a Fighting a Shadow situation and it is more like an avatar/personification of something truly incomprehensible. It refers to even itself as nothing because The End is merely a physical incarnation of that all-encroaching entropy

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#71427: Feb 27th 2023 at 4:45:39 PM

[up]That was already confirmed.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71428: Feb 27th 2023 at 4:47:28 PM

Wonder how the END's boss fight would have looked like if the latter half of the game wasn't apparently rushed

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71429: Feb 27th 2023 at 10:41:39 PM

This sounds like the "Caius Ballad is stronger than Sephiroth!" issue from all those years ago during the Final Fantasy XIII saga but worse. Hyping a big new villain via Informed Attribute is bad form already, but doing it long after the game came out?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71430: Feb 27th 2023 at 10:43:30 PM

That's exactly why I don't give a fuck about THE END. Its entire existence on TELLING the player who evil it is and it just falls flat.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#71431: Feb 27th 2023 at 10:54:52 PM

Probably a partial consequence of the villain of the week format. Unless you're Eggman, his robots or a member of his bloodline it's very rare for any villain to appear in more than one game without either having a face turn (Chaos and Shadow), or having some stipulation (Zavok, since in Forces he is an illusion and the Olympic games are non-canon)

Edited by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 on Mar 1st 2023 at 7:08:52 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#71432: Feb 27th 2023 at 11:50:47 PM

Face turn.

A heel turn is when a good guy (face) turns bad (turns heel). A face turn is when a bad guy (heel) turns good (turns face).

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 27th 2023 at 1:51:23 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71433: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:29:40 AM

With a game as long as Frontiers, they could've given The End more substance. Just look at what they did with Sage.

The problem is something you see sometimes when writers want to put all villain's eggs into - like - a huge twist before the end (no pun intended): where they go out of their way to do nothing with the villain beforehand because they think the moment of that impact is more important. But they could've gotten way more mileage out of "a possibly sinister voice is telling Sonic what to do, and he keeps listening to it" than they did. That voice could've had a personality, Sonic could've actually talked to it a few times, some of the worldbuilding could've come from it, etc.

They did the same thing with the worldbuilding too. A lot more of the game is "something happened here, but we'll never tell what it is!" than probably should've been. By the time you actually start to get info with Tails, you've been playing for hours and the game is nearly over.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 28th 2023 at 12:31:18 PM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71434: Feb 28th 2023 at 1:09:42 AM

World building can be executed in certain ways, it doesn't always have to follow the same framework.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71435: Feb 28th 2023 at 2:20:56 AM

I don’t think anyone is saying that the world building is bad *because* it wasn’t done a specific kind of way, though.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 28th 2023 at 2:23:39 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71436: Feb 28th 2023 at 2:34:34 AM

Yea its bad because nothing was done with it period.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71437: Feb 28th 2023 at 2:43:15 AM

I'm getting mixed messages here.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#71438: Feb 28th 2023 at 3:16:04 AM

I'm still skeptical of any further development happening with The End after Frontiers anyway, so I'm basically inclined to treating its a novelty with questions that won't likely be answered long term.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71439: Feb 28th 2023 at 3:39:33 AM

[up][up] The problem with The End isn't that "its developed in a non-conventional way", but that its not developed at all.

[up] Me either, which makes it feel like an even bigger waste of time tbh.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Feb 28th 2023 at 6:40:23 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71440: Feb 28th 2023 at 4:01:09 AM

That's the problme, you're already judging it prematurely instead of waiting for the next game.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71441: Feb 28th 2023 at 4:28:12 AM

I'm critiquing the product that we got, not a hypothetical version that doesn't exist.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71442: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:01:27 AM

Fair enough. Although we did see it destroy planets in a flashback.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71443: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:06:50 AM

[up][up][up]A bad first impression is still bad.

It doesn't really matter if it gets better later.

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LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#71444: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:08:41 AM

If that was the case, then Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan might not have been successful.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71445: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:40:05 AM

That is speaking only in hindsight.

[up][up][up] Which is the most bog standard "evil" thing a villain can do.

And I get understand why The End is the way it is, since Sage is the focal point of the game, not it. But there's not enough thematic tissue there to make up for it compared to say, the Biolizard and Shadow being products of Gerald's revenge but one trying to enact it while the other opposes it.

So the whole thing just doesn't feel satisfying to me.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71446: Feb 28th 2023 at 10:06:52 AM

It appears the Twitter page has embraced the meme of Metal being a surrogate son for Eggman.

This makes me interested in writing an essay exploring Eggman and Metal Sonic relationship through both series and expanded media. The only thing stopping me is lazyness from having to re-read Archie and Fleetway.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#71447: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:24:33 PM

Well, Eggman does sort of have a father/son relationship with Metal Sonic in the IDW comics.

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#71448: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:45:46 PM

It's a bit more complicated than that.

I did a little essay, although it doesn't have the proper research. It's mostly a summary.

    Tomo's observation of Eggman and Metal's relationship 

The idea of Eggman and Metal Sonic being a "family" wasn't "born" with Flynn. For much of his career writing them on Archie, Metal was expendable fodder in Eggman's army. The idea was born with the Olympic Games (2012) when Metal was paired with Bowser Jr.

By 2013, Sega told Archie to knock it off with Metal Sonic being mooks, which led to Sonic Universe establishing Metal Sonic as Eggman's top enforcer. And even then, their relationship was never parental. Only one panel suggest otherwise, and it was played for laughs.

However, the evolution of this gag happened in IDW with this one panel clearly played for laughs. Eggman even called himself "daddy", in a later issue, which I interpret it as a joke. Sonic even rubs it on Metal in issue 51.

If you keep extending the joke further, Sonic Colors: Rise of the Wisps releases with the joke that Orbot sees Metal as his "big bro" and tries to suck it, to Metal's annoyance. Which evolved with non-jokey Sonic Frontiers having Sage see Orbot as a sibling.

However, if you allow me to use Boom for an example, where Eggman is potrayed as an extrentic but lonely supervillain, he considers Orbot and Cubot "family". And he is abusive to them. This is no different with Metal Sonic.

From Metal Sonic point of view, which there is little information, Metal just sees Eggman as his master. He betrayed him once due to his countless defeats, and he chose to alter his own body to take over the empire. He was reprogrammed to be loyal.

So, yeah. This is just my two cents. Don't take the meme too seriously, but don't let the jokes fool you either.

TL;DR: Eggman and Metal being a father and son is played for humor, but is not necessarily true to either character. Eggman is abusive if Metal fails him, and Metal is mostly loyal due to his programming.

Edited by Tomodachi on Feb 28th 2023 at 12:49:34 PM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#71449: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:48:42 PM

Eggman is abusive if Metal fails him

Unfortunately, this is not a point against a father-son relationship.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71450: Feb 28th 2023 at 1:07:11 PM

......you know what, you earned that.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Feb 28th 2023 at 4:07:20 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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