You’re missing the point. Either old or new, Sonic Team has demonstrated ways on incorporating different characters into different gameplay styles. If they’re going to engage the fanbase and plan to go beyond just cameo appearances, those two games(Heroes more importantly) are solid foundations to start with. Every new game since Sonic 2 has featured new gimmicks that’s tried to adhere to Sonic’s core gameplay whilst expanding the roster.
No one cares if Vector came before Amy. My point is about making different characters playable.
Bro, I’m not brushing off anything; of course writing is important. That’s not the point. It’s already been addressed how the Freedom Fighters and the like could’ve been written into the lore and what they mean to the franchise; how they need a redesign to be reinterpreted and etc. Writing new characters isn’t the topic and I’m avoiding having to beat a dead horse about it. It’s been hundreds of thread pages since.
Someone commented how they’d work in the games. So I decided to focus on a case where they can work as gameplay characters.
No, I won’t. SEGA and Sonic Team has no excuse. If they’re serious about fan engagement, as it seems they’re demonstrating with Kishimoto hopping on Twitter, then it’s relevant to point out that they have tried and true formulas in their catalog that they can use as an opportunity to capitalize on this engagement. That is literally all I’ve been trying to say.
So Again No excuses.
I don’t know if you know this, but in spite of troubling PR, MVC:I is still regarded as a pretty good game. Bad PR is bad PR, but sometimes it doesn’t correlate with quality games. Function still stands as a workable compromise because otherwise you’re destined for another ’06. Function is a solution.
EDIT: words because apparently folks enjoy baiting me into thump territory.
Edited by Tony-Sharx on Feb 18th 2023 at 9:45:55 AM
Certified, self-appointed Sonic VisionaryHonestly, it doesn't seem to me like you've actually been making points. Just "I want it so it must be possible."
No one's baiting you into shit, so don't bother playing victim. You can take responsibility for your own word choice.
I didn't rearrange anything. I literally copied and pasted your words as they were. The only edit I made was removing a middle sentence using an ellipsis, which is the grammatically correct way to indicate that you are referring to certain sequential parts of a quote, but not the whole thing. Please, come off it and dial it back. It's not that serious.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 18th 2023 at 12:27:12 PM
So anyway, back on to possible character moves for the team.
When I was working on how I'd edit Sonic's Smash bros moveset, I noticed the only really "new" moves added were the Phantom Rush, Homing Shot, and to a lesser extent, the Wild Rush. Even the Cyloop is functionally an evolution of the Blue Tornado
: a spin around an area that results in encircled opponents having their defenses opened up and/or vertical wind and knockback. Frontiers didn't actually introduce too many new moves for Sonic himself. A good number came from Fighters, Battle, or other appearances. Someone put together a compilation on what they believe some of the move inspirations to be:
Granted, Sonic of course has more appearances to pull from than other characters, so it may be a bit harder for them, but I don't think it's really all that complicated.
(If anyone's interested in my thoughts on Sonic's Smash moveset that I'd alluded to, or the moveset I'd make for Tails, they're available in my thoughts for the Smash franchise here
.)
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 18th 2023 at 12:12:57 PM
Well...Glad to see engagement here has improved. No seriously, this topic is dead most of the time.
Uh, I feel like you both have a point, but just have a fundamental disagreement. This might sound like a copout answer but there's no right way to do this.
Fans want to see characters used in contexts that make them shine because they like them, but that led to the dreaded genre roulette.
Sooo, its a matter of balancing the narrative context surrounding these characters with their gameplay context.
And to be honest, Sonic has never been particularly good at balancing that. Not for lack of trying but they never quite hit the mark on it.
Sooo, it doesn't shock me that people split on the issue like this. Can we just...be nicer about it please? I've been suspended a few times for these types of conversations.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
I am happy to contribute to positive engagement, but I do apologize for any venom I've shared. That wasn't my intention. In fact, the potential for venom regarding discussion about this franchise is why I stayed away from this thread for... something like 10 years? So I sincerely didn't want to bring that with me. Even when I said something "got a laugh from me", I meant it in a goodhearted "huh, that's ironic" laugh (which is why I edited my post to explain why I found it ironic). It wasn't intended to be a mocking laugh, but I see it still could come across that way.
Oh, Very Melon: Thanks for linking that LowArt video. I'd been meaning to get around to it after I've finished what's already on my youtube watchlist.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 18th 2023 at 12:15:52 PM
I'm not pissed off tbh. And definitely not with the franchise. I'm happier with the state of the franchise than I've been in a long time. The only thing actually annoying me about the games right now is that one part in Mania Chemical Plant Act 1 where if you're going too fast into one of the moving blocks it treats you as being crushed and costs you a life.
Hell, I even found stuff to like about Forces. My main issues with that game were Tails' character assassination, and that the levels were too short, and the latter is annoying, but far from the worst issue possible.
I will note that Megaman was cut in MVC 3 for having a similar moveset to Ryu/Ken. This could've been somewhat glossed over... but they kept Akuma in, who is even more similar to Ryu/Ken than Megaman is. This is the core reason why people don't like the point. It's not a legitimate cut there. It's hypocritical. Not that Akuma shouldn't come back either, but Megaman is functionally different either way. He's far more of a tool master with a shotoclone moveset. I'm sure there's a more correct term.
That's all I'll go with(I had a much longer post, but it grew too big).
I will say I hate MVCI's roster for refusing to keep Wolverine. I don't care how much they want to push characters like the Inhumans. There's nothing wrong with them being in either. But he's a founding father of the franchise. That cut made no sense and Marvel made a horrible decision with it. The game selling fine just means it's not a bad game. The roster is still awful. I can't find any information on the second set of DLC, but the low sales is what cancelled any hope of more. Yes, it really did poorly(though do note some people were fine with the overall gameplay, but the roster is understandably disliked for lacking some rather important characters).
(Also worth noting that the Infinite developer did acknowledge this, and noted there were characters that played functionally the same. The fans responded with the fact they wanted the character, not the moveset. Albeit, he couldn't say that Marvel wouldn't let them use the X-Men and Fantastic Four, but it still shows how bad the argument is).
Basically, a character is already a function to begin with when playable. Removing said character is still the problem not because of the function, but because said character is popular. Replacing them with an identical character doesn't win people over. They want the character. People are more open to moveset changes because the get to still play as said character. That's why they want them back. Smash Bros. is really one of the few franchises where changing how a character functions is not a very popular thing overall(due to it alienating later fans).
As Smash didn't start off as a very competitive game(that happened more during Melee), it was made with the mindset that the character is very important, and changing them means players aren't easily going to be able to outright return to said character. Minor tweaks make it still easy to adjust.
Multiple characters have more than that, and not all can adjust so easily. Link losing the Gale Boomerang, for instance, heavily changes his playstyle, enough that it is possible for a Link main to switch to Young Link, who remotely plays more similarly to the past iterations as is(that's not saying all feel this way, of course. I only know one Link player who abandoned his core main due to the alienating moveset. It's a personal anecdote, yep. I can say on my end otherwise I find Ganondorf very difficult to adjust to cause of the sword. It screws up my timing that I worked on for years. Bowser oddly went the opposite. He has a much more changed up moveset, yet somehow I found him kind of easy to play? I think that's more due to the moveset being good than anything else, though).
I'll try to folder this if it gets too long(if somebody thinks it needs it, anyway). That said, something I like about the Sonic franchise is characters never changed all that much and you still felt like you were playing them, even with new playstyles. Tails is the sole exception to this, and even he did mech stuff as early as his own game, so he doesn't feel as bad(that, and both Eggman and Gamma were fun to play as, so it's more just the fact he happens to be a cloned moveset in one game. He gets back to being the fly guy pretty fast, though. Even if it's flying a mech sometimes. Thinking about it, isn't Tails the only character to have multiple variable movesets somewhat often? Sonic has one other one, the Werehog, at best. I'm not counting the fighting games for what I mean, as I more mean platformers. ...Cause, well, yeah, obviously some are pretty different with that in mind. Nor stuff like Riders, for obvious reasons).
Edited by Irene on Feb 18th 2023 at 1:10:16 PM
Shadow?Combofiend wasn't a developer on MVCI. He was a pro fighting game player who they'd hired to help with promoting the game. As you mentioned, he was limited in what he could say. Unfortunately he got hit with some flack that shouldn't have been aimed at him.
I am sorry you lost the Ganondorf that fit you. TBH if it were up to me, I'd change Ganondorf further, but I'd also add in Black Shadow as the inheritor of his Melee/Brawl/For moveset. I know that doesn't really fit everyone.
Tails really just was in the mech the one time to fit him into a function. Even in Tails Adventure, his Remote Robot and Sea Fox were only used for parts of some levels. Tails has always been my favorite character in the franchise, so I'm happy whenever he's playable, but I'd prefer not to go back to a mech. For the most part Sonic Characters stick to a core design when they're playable in platformers. Rouge (another of my favorites) is probably the one who has seen the most changes, going from being a Knuckles counterpart in Adventure 2, to a Tails counterpart in Heroes, to more of her own thing using flight, kicks, and bombs afterwards. It is kind of funny though that Tails and Rouge kept using bombs after Battle needed them to be a third option for special moves for everyone.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 18th 2023 at 1:29:13 PM
He also was in a mech for all of his playability in Unleashed(HD only) along with some segments in Adventure 1. Adventure 2 and Unleashed(HD) are his the only time I remember Tails being purely Mech playable in platformers.
All I can say is I'd accept Black Shadow if he's a semi-clone of Ganondorf while only tweaking Ganondorf(but keeping his core moveset intact). I hate the idea of replacing a Smash character with anyone else. They're characters, not only functions. So no, it wouldn't be pleasing. It'd be the same poor thing MVCI did. I care about the moveset because of who actually uses it. And he's not Ganondorf if he isn't physically mighty along with have magic as part of his moveset in some way(even if it's only mostly aesthetics. He does a few elemental punches, which ultimately counts as a form of using magic, but it's quite lacking even in that regard).
(I'll just note at that point, I'd rather see Pig Ganon or Toon Ganondorf for more unique movesets, not changing a core function of a character to the point they no longer exist. Characters do equal movesets. We also know that some games have added the same character again while giving them an all new moveset in some way, which I feel does a far better job at properly giving more fans what they want).
Anyway, I did more means Tails to return to his Adventure 1 style gameplay, which is heavily different from Sonic's. Just less recycling the same stages would help a bit more. Adventure 2 still recycled them, but they functioned pretty differently even then. Mad Space and Meteor Herd take place around the same area, but are nothing alike, for instance. And that's even while being the same type of stage. I'd say Adventure 2 hit a good mark on that(Shadow also did this well in itself, though some stages do suck in both games regardless of hitting the concept right).
Edited by Irene on Feb 18th 2023 at 1:48:54 PM
Shadow?Ah, I didn't play that Unleashed.
Further continue on Smash would be a lengthy detour, but you can still see my thoughts for Ganondorf and Black Shadow at the above link. Again, I don't like viewing characters as functions, but I was still trying to make Ganondorf be more true to Ganondorf, which Smash!Ganondorf really didn't seem to be.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Feb 18th 2023 at 1:51:40 PM
I never argued against using characters within the context of a game's story. Since we're all gonna bring Marvel into this, I'm a put y'all to task about a point Stan Lee made in regards to writing characters: It doesn't matter who's supposed to win in a fight, it's whoever the writer wants to win.
Fighting games are constructed on the pretense that your chosen fighter comes out on top, regardless of power level. You're playing dozens of different stories with different outcomes to specific match ups. Gouki can mop the floor with Sean, but that doesn't mean Sean's storyline isn't gonna have a written outcome for when you beat Gouki in Story mode. Would it be any different if it was Dan or Blanka instead of Sean?
Basically it's whatever the creator wants. Kishimoto has has peaked interest on including older characters in a game. He probably has a clue on how to achieve that. Let the man fucking cook.
Certified, self-appointed Sonic VisionaryI agree that Tails is a little trickier to come up with gameplay ideas for in the Frontiers system.
For Knuckles, the first thing I thought of was that you could really lean into the traversal abilities for him - especially if the DLC stories give each character their own tailor-made areas to explore. Give him unique climbing challenges, incorporate digging into his traversal, etc.
For Amy, you could really lean into the combat stuff. Instead of the one or two long-range abilities Sonic has, go all in on the rushing in, dodging, handling multiple enemies at once with her hammer's huge AOE, etc. Make her combat harder, but more rewarding, and have her DLC story focus a lot on that.
With Tails, its tricky. His ability to fly is probably going to be heavily neutered to keep him from invalidating all the traversal, and in combat you can mostly just see him play a lot like Sonic. Maybe they'll give him unique platforming challenges, or focus on new and trickier puzzles.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 19th 2023 at 2:17:52 AM
I think you could do something interesting with Tails if the danger of enemy projectiles was emphasized. Basically flight offers a risk/reward where you can skip large sections via flight (especially linear levels) but you're a much bigger target for enemies firing things at you that you have to develop skill via parry/dodge equivalents to deal with. The ground would then be much safer at the cost of not being able to get to break the level design as much because its an emphasis on running with select platforming. Perhaps over time stuff like dummy rings/tech to drop on enemies is something that could developed, turning Tails into a tactical bomber fox at points.
I think the biggest problem with the additional characters is how the philosophy behind adapting them has changed over time.
In the 2D games, the base gameplay is designed primarily with Sonic in mind. With additional characters adopting his template but with an additional move or two to differentiate them. Characterization and narrative being mostly secondary things in the 2D games (with some exceptions)
But with the added story focus of the 3D games, so did the contexts of the characters. Now Sega decided to give them their own unique gameplay tied to their characters as opposed to just being functions of Sonic. Obviously this meant they played very different from Sonic. Notably, this is the era when Sonic Team struggled to adapt Tails and Knuckles' gameplay due to how their gameplay didn't translate very well from 2D.
So, a lot of these problems just stem from the fact that a lot the ideas for these characters and how they play stems from being a little overly ambitious....and Sonic Team not being very talented developers for these ideas to reach their full potential.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I think the idea of Tails using gadgets in-story and maybe as a few moves might work. Being stuck in a mech entirely doesn't work that well(as shown in Unleashed and somewhat in Adventure 2... though in the latter, the levels sucked, not the gameplay). Something like using various mechs at times like Tails' Adventure did is another option.
Adventure 1 made his gameplay really stick out as not being Sonic-but-flight. He had new techniques. He just didn't have enough unique levels to change it up. The rest of the cast felt highly different in Adventure 1 even with the recycled areas. Mostly cause the gameplay also was massively different. Only Big's in itself simply didn't work well(mostly cause fishing was a crapshoot in some 3D games combined with losing a life very easily... if your line breaks. Albeit, it makes somewhat sense, since he almost never has any enemies, but it's still very annoying only due to the bad controls).
Shadow?So the devs kind of have to make the tough decision on who gets focus; do you go with the tried and true characters like Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Knuckles, Amy, or Shadow or do you take a risk (and potentially lose money) use a more obscure character like Cream or Silver?
Its something you gotta always struggle with,.
You lot can say what you will about it, but a Chaotix RPG that plays in the same vein as Like A Dragon 7 would, I personally think, work like gangbusters.
Food for thought: for my Chaotix RPG idea, I thought of having Sally and Nicole to some major capacity (like how Disney repurposes elements from non-canon Star Wars material to make them work in their SW canon), but I'm stumped if they'd work best as Madam Mayor Acorn and Deputy Mayor Nicole or Police Commissioner and Chief. Or how about Police Chief and Detective?
Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Feb 19th 2023 at 2:44:33 PM
I was wondering: what made Sonic Frontiers a bit successful in Japan? Historically, the Sonic franchise has rarely done well in Japan, but it seems like Sonic Frontiers was the first time in years that a Sonic game made headways in Japan. Was Sonic Frontiers a bit successful because it incorporated some anime influences, like in that case Neon Genesis Evangelion ?
I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!![]()
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One could also go the Soleanna route and make the Kingdom of Acorn (or Captain Ersatz equivalent) a random country that Sonic and his friends haven't visited yet. Introducing the Freedom Fighters isn't an inherently bad idea, but they can't have any past history with Sonic, so as to avoid Remember the New Guy? or Continuity Lock-Out.
I have considered having Sally and her Freedom Fighters existing in the past, like Medieval times, or perhaps a bit after, but the Kingdom of Acorn wasn't threatened by Robotnik. Instead, Ixis Nagus and Warlord Kudos overthrew it years ago, and Sonic gets sent back in time where he ends up helping the exiled Sally and friends.

Tails has a lot of variety on his own though. His tails, bombs, small robots, wrench, Magic Hand, energy shot...
I wonder if Amy will retain her wind attacks from her hammer, or if Knuckles will retain some geokinetic moves.