TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Go To

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70751: Jan 15th 2023 at 2:34:29 PM

[up]Given the semi-typical approach by Sonic Team it does line up. Organically developing Amy a gameplay style to best fit her personality could be done, but with a desire to cut pre-production costs and time down, shifting her into a typical action platformer character was simply much easier to do. Moreover with the backlash against Sonic's "crappy friends" still lingering and a broad fanbase already divided on her Adventure era characterization, changing her personality a bit for future games was likely considered as being relatively low risk to do all things considered.

Edited by BorneAgain on Jan 15th 2023 at 5:36:58 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70752: Jan 15th 2023 at 2:38:11 PM

I understand all of that, I just think its super lazy and doesn't actually address the problem at all. They've swept the problem under the rug basically and hope that nobody will notice it. Or they just don't care that nobody notices it so as long as they can turn a profit.

If they really didn't want to put the time into building Amy up, they should have just phased her out and made Blaze the main female playable character imo.

I have a similar feeling about Tails and Knuckles as like Amy, Sega haven't really done the work of making their playstyles or personalities fit in the Modern scape of the franchise, but they still want to keep them around because they're iconic.

And its funny, because Tails has the exact opposite problem from Amy of that he used to be as capable a Sonic and now he isn't anymore because fuck consistency lmao.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 15th 2023 at 5:42:47 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70753: Jan 15th 2023 at 2:51:14 PM

Probably just my cynicism at work, but I could see it as a calculated move given the various audiences. Casual/media critics aren't going to strongly object to major female character being made capable (and at least on the surface given a personality beyond liking Sonic), gameplay purists are going to likely prefer something relatively close to the speed based plaforming they like, and even some Adventure era fans are just going to happy she's prominent and potentially playable again.

It hasn't entirely worked with the latter group given there is a clear dislike of how actionized Amy has had many of her unique elements removed, but the overall audience response has been entirely manageable. Its a bit like the de-emphasis of non-Eggman humans after Unleashed; those most bothered by it were largely outweighed by groups either indifferent or enthusiastic about the change.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70754: Jan 15th 2023 at 2:59:56 PM

Her Adventure 1 gameplay style was the best she ever had.

If you have to give her a spin, make it so her hammer attack in the air is just functionally the Insta-Shield.

An extended hit box to her spin jump.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70755: Jan 15th 2023 at 3:07:42 PM

[up][up]

     Warning: Very opinionated Kuzu rant 
When it comes to Sonic, a franchise that is rather notorious for its various inconsistencies, the target demographic being young children, and the most ardent of fans being deeply entrenched in their nostalgia. You don't have to do much to please people.

Children, obviously, don't really care and will just get Sonic related products cuz they like him or think he looks cool. Older fans are gonna buy the games to see if their problems will finally be addressed or because they acknowledged something that they liked from their childhoods.

So you kind of have a "one step forward, two steps back" approach when it comes to Sonic. But unless Sega do something as egregiously bad as 06 again, there will be people who are just content to get the latest Sonic product for whatever reason and leave it at that.

I hope this didn't sound too cynical or aggressive, it's just an observation I've noticed is all. It's one of the main reasons I can't really bring myself to get as excited as people about the series, but on the flipside it means I'm less inclined to be angry either. So I just see things as neutrally as possible I guess.

Moving back to Amy; she's just gonna continue to exist as she currently does I guess. I don't have any strong feelings about her current interpretations. It'd be nice if they built on the things they established with her, but I suppose she's not as obnoxious as she is before so....*shrug*

I feel like if they introduced her in the Sonic movies, they would just do what they're doing in the The Super Mario Bros. Movie and just make her hyper-competent. They might even just straight up turn her into Sally and make her a leader of some rebel leader lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70756: Jan 15th 2023 at 3:21:15 PM

[up]Honestly, the older one gets as a Sonic fan, the more there's a practical benefit to being economical about elements from the official games. Enjoy the things from them you like, do your best to ignore the things you don't, and generally look towards the fans for the kind of media that's closer to your preferences. If you're lucky you get a Sonic Mania once in a while and the rest of the time, you at least get a Sonic Triple Trouble 16 Bit or Project 06 to fill the void.

Edited by BorneAgain on Jan 15th 2023 at 6:27:38 AM

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#70757: Jan 15th 2023 at 3:22:13 PM

[up][up] Well IDW and Forces did just that, so you're prolly not off the marktongue

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jan 15th 2023 at 3:22:24 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70758: Jan 15th 2023 at 3:24:49 PM

[up][up]Basically, take what you can get lol.

[up] Sometimes I wish I wasn't right. It's nice to be proven wrong about this shit.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 15th 2023 at 6:25:39 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70759: Jan 15th 2023 at 4:15:16 PM

A friend and some mutual who are very fond of Amy didnt like the video.

I just didnt watch it.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70760: Jan 15th 2023 at 4:23:07 PM

Did they specify why?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70761: Jan 15th 2023 at 5:08:10 PM

Don't quote me, as I'm speaking from third parties.

They don't like Pariah's argument that Amy was always meant to be seen as the normal girl who couldn't compare with other characters, as they felt it forgets her character development between games that allows her to be an Action Girl to begin with. Especially as Amy's development isn't that different from Tails, only told differently.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70762: Jan 15th 2023 at 5:11:55 PM

She could take care of herself...finally.

That's not really her end goal, it does however make sense that after 4 levels of running away...she would finally fight back against the Zero 2.

Being able to handle herself doesn't require being an Action Girl...it just requires a bit of competence.

Would however say...that development doesn't really go anywhere. The immediate game preceding Adventure turned her into a tag-along who only helps occasionally.

Edited by randomness4 on Jan 15th 2023 at 8:15:40 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70763: Jan 15th 2023 at 5:58:31 PM

Yea, like immediately after SA 1 she's turned into a joke in SA 2 and then she's suddenly doing what everyone else can do in Heroes and then arbitrarily back to her SA 1 self in 06.

What development? That's the problem lol. Sega leave holes in these characters and then fans fill them in with their headcanons and assume that was always meant to be the case.

Amy had no development between games, she just...changed.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 15th 2023 at 8:59:07 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#70764: Jan 15th 2023 at 6:04:42 PM

she's turned into a joke in SA2
How so? Just because she's not playable? Harsh.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70765: Jan 15th 2023 at 6:16:10 PM

She's literally whining about being left behind while Sonic & Tails do everything.

Obviously that's meant to be a joke about how she was pretty much useless until her scene with Shadow.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70766: Jan 15th 2023 at 6:28:00 PM

She busted Sonic out of prison too.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70767: Jan 15th 2023 at 6:29:25 PM

After being cornered by Eggman and needing Tails to save her...

There are literally two scenes where the punchline is that Sonic & Tails are too preoccupied dealing with Eggman to care about Amy.

Yea, she's a joke in SA 2 :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70768: Jan 15th 2023 at 6:53:01 PM

I was just sad we couldn't play as her. When i saw her narrate Cannon's Core I got so excited thinking she'd be playable.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#70769: Jan 15th 2023 at 7:42:18 PM

She isn't playable in that game though. What exactly are you expecting from her?

Is Tails a joke in Unleashed because all he does call for Sonic's help, explain some stuff, and get knocked out of the sky at the end?
Are Knuckles and Amy jokes in Lost World because all they do get the life sucked from halfway through and then saved?
Is Silver a joke in Forces because all he does is get his ass kicked by Infinite at one point?
Are Knuckles, Amy, Cream, Rouge, and the Chaotix jokes in Generations because all they do is get saved by Sonic and then cheer him on later while doing nothing?

What exactly is the problem Amy's role in SA2? She gets saved by Tails at one point and gets captured by Eggman at another. She also made it to Prison Island on her own, got through security with Tails, stuck around with Sonic and Tails, and convinced Shadow to help at the end. She might not have done anything major that would have required her to be playable, but she did more than most characters in non-playable roles do in Sonic games. I really don't see the issue that you think exists with Amy's characterization in that time period.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70770: Jan 15th 2023 at 7:50:18 PM

It seems like more of a static continuation of her role in Sonic Adventure...with the only differences being her not being playable and her culminating moment of course talking Shadow out of his faulty memory.

The fact that she's not playable makes it more noticeable that she doesn't do much in the story, but the moment with Shadow is obviously very important and just as valid of a moment as her finally fighting back against Zero to show she's useful.

What happens in Adventure 2 doesn't really play off of her development, she's mostly just the same character.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70771: Jan 15th 2023 at 7:57:32 PM

I felt her status as The Heart of the group was also seen in Sonic Shuffle (though maybe because I always played as her to get her POV on things.)

The Protomen enhanced my life.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70772: Jan 15th 2023 at 8:54:07 PM

Is Silver a joke in Forces because all he does is get his ass kicked by Infinite at one point?

Yes.

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#70773: Jan 15th 2023 at 9:03:14 PM

any character who isnt shadow is a joke. problem solved

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70774: Jan 15th 2023 at 9:23:44 PM

It's also worth noting that her being seen as a joke by fans and the writers intending her to be perceived that way are two different things, especially where character development is involved. I wouldn't agree that she was written as a joke in the Adventure games, at least not until Heroes - which started her being more of a humorous antagonist than a supporting hero.

And even then, in that later period the character wasn't a "joke" in the sense that she was ineffectual, but in the literal sense that she was mostly utilized for humor rather than drama. But going from the start...

In the Adventure games, she just runs into a similar problem that Tails did in the Boost era, in that they've both wanted to have their cake and eat it too with her. Canonically, Amy's indeed gone through several games worth of storylines about her becoming more of an Action Girl - including at least one straightforward "I can be badass too if I only believe in myself" storyline. But plotwise, she's a dedicated supporting character who's - this is what happened between SA 1 and SA 2: in SA 1 she got a whole character arc about growing into her own as a heroine, then in SA 2 she was strictly The Heart giving compassionate support to the more proactive male characters (this is, to note, a very common way for shounen series to treat supposedly badass female characters, especially at the time (it's less of an issue now)).

So people who say that Amy's had character development to justify her being a more badass character are entirely correct. People who say she she was never used that way despite that character development are also correct.

But that's not really what led to her situation now. It's what happened after that. Basically, after SA 2, Amy morphed into - effectively - a humor character. The joke about her chasing Sonic despite him not being interested went from her most defining character trait to her only character trait, period, and her presence became more or less a series of Running Gags. She stopped being The Heart, she stopped being The Chick, she didn't get many protag arcs again, and she stopped being a supporting character in general. Instead - yeah - you could arguably say she was mostly antagonistic (which, ironically, did mean she was allowed to be badass more often in the side games).

It culminated in extremes like Free Riders, where she's basically a hilariously delusional psychopath.

The reason she's kind of bland now, as a result, is because they've decided both that she shouldn't be a humor character any more, and also that her defining character trait is no good, but dont' really seem to have a strong idea of what they want in the meantime. So while they're trying to figure out what she should be instead, in the meantime we're left with her just being kind of generally compassionate.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 15th 2023 at 9:26:48 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70775: Jan 15th 2023 at 9:46:30 PM

I'll rescind one of my previous statements and say that while Amy in SA 2 isn't a joke in of herself, there are lot of jokes at her expense in that game. That by itself is fine, but when that is the follow up to an arc she had in SA 1, its not a good look. Especially when she does actually become a Flanderized joke in subsequent games after.

But I'll concede that since Amy wasn't playable in SA 2, there wasn't really much they could do with her and she does in fact do more than Sonic characters usually do in an NPC role...especially nowadays.

But yea; they don't really know what to do with Amy nowadays. They got rid of the parts people didn't like, but didn't replace it with anything worthwhile so she's just...there.

I personally didn't mind Amy's Flanderization too much (since it made me laugh at times), but I get why they toned it down. But its like, nobody wants to revisit the Adventure games for her characterization beyond the "I can be a fighter too" part.

I feel like the people in charge of this franchise make writing and interpreting these characters a lot harder than it needs to be. Like it shouldn't be this hard to write what amounts to a bunch of Shonen Anime Archetypes and yet...here we are.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Total posts: 84,033
Top