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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70501: Jan 3rd 2023 at 1:42:52 PM

I can deal with it. The Western additions are chili dogs, the name Robotnik, and dunno, Tails Doll being creepy.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70502: Jan 3rd 2023 at 1:55:14 PM

I can respect purists as long as its not obnoxious.

And like, Pariah literally said he likes Prime, which is a Western production. You can prefer something without necessarily disliking something else.

Amy's always been a weird a character because you can tell she was never designed to be a core part of Sonic's group, but since she's literally the most prominent female character in the series, they basically retro fitted her into the role of a heroine.

But yea, I agree that her just being another hero doesn't help her stand out in a series where almost anyone is an action hero.

But then you'd have those fans complaining about Amy not being "cool". Its whatever at this point, but it doesn't really do Amy any favors beyond generic cool points.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70503: Jan 3rd 2023 at 1:59:48 PM

Amy being anything but action girl adjacent (and possibly with resemblances to Sally in some respects) is pretty much a given here on out until Sega/Sonic team tries elevating any other prominent female character outside the context of the comics. Even with a portion of hardcore fanbase that might prefer something closer to her aughts era depiction is competing with other fans and casuals not seeing much value in a characterization that to them (fairly or unfairly) seems defined by her being a lovesick admirer.

As far as Western vs Japanese contributions, as someone not terribly attached to the idea of there being a definitive Sonic to begin with, I'm generally fine with whatever direction various media goes with. You get some interesting stories out of it and the series typically evolves over time so I doubt any particular vibe will become too stagnant anyway.

Even if the games themselves went full blown shounen anime ala the Adventure again, at worst I'd shrug given that the movies, TV shows, and even comics will still be a bit more balanced and/or Western oriented on average.

Edited by BorneAgain on Jan 3rd 2023 at 5:05:45 AM

diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#70504: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:00:03 PM

As far as people saying that Amy shouldn't be an Action Girl... That seems like a very reductive way of looking at a character, it sounds like boiling her down to one thing. But characters are made up of many tropes. Amy, Rouge, and Blaze I would say all qualify as an Action Girl, but they're very different characters.

All that said, I personally think in modern media Action Girl is starting to approach "People Sit On Chairs" levels anyway. More and more, that's not character-specific enough to be notable. If your franchise has action, and women can't in at least someway partake in it, I think generally that's seen as bad. So my horse in this race is kind of running on its own track anyway...

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70505: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:05:45 PM

Tails doll being creepy is a fan thing, not a Western thing.

Also it kinda comes with his victory screen when you beat the game with him.

A limp doll, with an uncanny look, under a spotlight, but otherwise in a completely black void.

That's naturally creepy imagery.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#70506: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:11:06 PM

[up]The Archie comics portrayed it as a terrifying monster and mole for Eggman, though.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#70507: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:11:50 PM

I've heard the argument of modern Amy being a generic action girl before, but it still makes no sense to me.

How is she more of an action character now than in the 2000s, when she was actually playable and doing things?

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#70508: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:12:19 PM

Saying g any should only be a normal non combatant is like saying batman should be using guns and killing g people. It happened when they first were created and the characters have evolved since. Amy was literally only like that in cd and then come adventure and since she's been swinging around a hammer.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70509: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:20:24 PM

[up][up][up]Yes, I'm pretty sure there's a trope that I don't feel like looking for that describes fanon being adapted into official stuff.

It was already a thing before Archie started doing that.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70510: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:21:56 PM

Amy's whole thing before was that she couldn't do what the other Heroes could do, which was reflected in her gameplay in the early 2000's.

She couldn't spin dash/Jump/roll, wasn't as fast as Sonic or Shadow, couldn't fly like Tails, nor was she as strong as Knuckles.

It added an extra layer to the character that she had to rely on non-conventional skills to get by, and needed to be bailed out sometimes when she got in over her head.

Nowadays, she's basically as capable as anyone else. Gameplay wise, she plays essentially exactly like Sonic Tails and Knuckles do with not much setting her apart.

A lot of people will call that "growth", but some feel it robs her of some individuality.

Like even Sally was more of a strategist and diplomat than a frontline fighter and relied mostly on Sonic to hit things.

Before this conversation reaches Unfortunate Implications territory, I am in no way saying Amy shouldn't be action oriented or capable. I'm just saying its not a very interesting angle.

Its like Syndrome said, "when everyone is Super, nobody will be".

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 3rd 2023 at 5:24:34 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70511: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:27:53 PM

At least in Classic Sonic titles I always thought Amy could work great as a defense character, with something like breaking hazards fitting perfectly for that.

Sonic Mania Plus to me felt like it had three categories of characters; exploration, speed, & platforming/defense. Tails & Knuckles obviously fit the first, Sonic & Ray the second, and Mighty in the third. In that sense I could see how she could fit into the latter box, with her destroying spikes and potentially being able to hit projectiles back against enemies. In my head she's basically be tougher to master than Mighty, but with a higher ceiling in terms of dealing with hazards; with a few elements from her Advance 1 portrayal to round her out.

-She can't spin dash, but can roll into a ball, including on slopes. This allows the level design for the other five characters to still fit her.

-Down + jump actually has her use her hammer which could break spikes from the side and hit back most projectiles against enemies with the proper timing, and when hitting springs launches her higher than if she jumped on them.

-Pressing jump in the air gives her a hammer spin which briefly protects her (like a slightly longer instashield with the trade off that it only shields her left and right sides) and gives her a small double jump. Gives her more precision platforming at the cost of not having much momentum.

Basically she'd be too context sensitive for mastering exploration or speed most of the time, but a skilled player could make her almost untouchable by enemies or traps.

Of course that's just 2D, 3D Amy is its own ball of wax.

Edited by BorneAgain on Jan 3rd 2023 at 5:29:11 AM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70512: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:39:19 PM

I feel any discussion with Amy borders on Unfortunate Implications.

I'll stick with Metal Sonic. Mute, silent, determined, unfavorite child.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70513: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:44:11 PM

Amy's such a cool character though.

Did you know that gogo boots went back in style after her redesign?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#70514: Jan 3rd 2023 at 2:53:08 PM

And she planted those same boots on Batman's skull too.

Are explosions science?
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70515: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:04:33 PM

He held back.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#70516: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:13:38 PM

I would agree that arguing that Amy shouldn't get involved as much in action because she's weaker is stupid, she was basically already on everyone else's "level" as far back as Advance in 2001. But I think Amy has had her, I guess, motivations? suppressed in a lot of recent works.

It's similar to the conversations had about Knuckles. Knuckles used to be all about protecting the Master Emerald. But then Sonic Team wanted to keep using Knuckles but didn't want to deal with writing the Master Emerald into everything, and they didn't think to write something else for him to do. So Knuckles is oftentimes around at the start of stories just because. Because it's expected he'll be there, so he just is. And some people have problems with that.

Throughout the 90s and 00s Amy generally only ever entered the plot of a Sonic game because she was chasing Sonic and so ended up where he was, or she was doing something else that happens to get her involved (like in Heroes she's helping Cream and Big, and they only start to focus on Eggman when they get clues that point to him being the culprit). But a lot of more recent stuff doesn't like to emphasize her crush on Sonic as her defining trait now, but she's still expected to be around because she's a main character. So she's just kind of around at the start of stories, helping fight Eggman, just because.

And thinking about it, there's kind of thing in general with introducing Eggman into stories. In earlier games there was usually some build-up at the start showing how the conflict begins, whether Sonic stumbles across Eggman doing something or Eggman shows up to start shit with Sonic. But a lot of recent stuff just starts with the heroes already fighting Eggman with no further explanation. It gives the impression like the central characters have nothing else to do with their time except chase down and fight Eggman all the time, like it's literally their job.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#70517: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:19:29 PM

One of Amy's more consistent features is her kindness and wanting to help others, only ever being beaten by her wanting to chase Sonic instead.

If the later is not something actively clouding her judgment anymore (which is good and distinct from her not having feelings for him anymore), she has no reason not to help, specially when dealing with Eggman.

I don't really see the problem of the modern approach beyond some really dumb argument that she is stealing Sally's thunder (who is no longer a factor and really shouldn't keep exlusive rights to what are ultimately broad character traits).

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70518: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:25:32 PM

I could buy the criticism that Amy's current characterization is about as generic as they could've possibly chosen to go with her, or even that they chose to respond to her having a problematic personality by just giving her less of a personality in general.

I don't think I've seen anything that isn't Pokemon play the standard slew of "the generic girl in an ensemble of male characters" tropes this straight in years. She's is now playing straight the character type Boom was actively using her to make fun of.

I personally been giving it a pass because it's clear they don't quite know what they even want to do with the character yet and might end up building on this somehow, but if so I hope it comes soon because she could seriously use some fleshing out.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:30:59 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70519: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:33:50 PM

Remember when Amy was interested in archeology?

Remember when Amy was dissatisfied in her boring city life and just wanted Adventure?

Remember when Amy was just the tag-along kid?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#70520: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:40:45 PM

Well, here’s hoping that Frontiers free update does something for her.

My musician page
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#70521: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:47:13 PM

Hell, loving Sonic and chasing him was even secondary to her kindness, standing against Sonic without hesitation to help save Gamma from destruction.

And I don't think I'm inherently against her being an action orientated character, but it should be consistent that she's the most "normal" member of the group (the hammer really helps with that)

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#70522: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:56:59 PM

I think the Pariah-held opinion I disagree with most is actually a subject I've seen legitimate debate around. Specifically that Shadow, post Black Arms invasion, shouldnt give two figs about Maria or any of the ideals he shared with her because he "put his past behind him" at the end of that game. Its strange. Because to me it was a statement about living life in the moment as you are and not being bound by your past. But some interpret that as erasing his past entirely. Which would leave him as kind of an empty character.

EDIT: Oh, and my quick opinion on Prime. Its a good Saturday morning style cartoon for kids growing up with the movies. I don't like it, but its not really aimed at me. Some of the writing is clever. I hate the baby.

EDIT 2: I bring up the Shadow thing because he specifically derided Shadow's story in Sonic Battle where I personally feel it was one of the best story arcs in that game.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Jan 3rd 2023 at 7:10:58 AM

Teamkirin5 Soft Boi from You don't need to know. Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Soft Boi
#70523: Jan 3rd 2023 at 4:11:21 PM

The thing about Amy is that there are 4 prominent females in Sonic: Amy, Cream, Rouge, and Blaze.

Cream is the youngest character and has a pure, innocent, naive personality, so she'll be kept out of the action by definition, and is the least action oriented to begin with. She fits more as The Heart.

Rouge, despite being a good deal stronger than Amy, is more of a support character for Shadow, and he doesn't show up that often due to being an Aloof Ally and Anti-Hero. If he doesn't show up, she almost certainly won't either.

Blaze is the strongest female character, being fully capable of keeping up with Sonic, Shadow, and Silver. Her problem is that she's in an alternate dimension, and she happens to be a Princess in said dimension, so it's not like she can just hop on over to Sonic's world willy nilly.

As such, Sega is left with Amy by virtue of her closeness to Sonic and process of elimination.

We all have to answer to the call of fate when it beckons us, even if it is not at a moment of our choosing.
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#70524: Jan 3rd 2023 at 4:22:10 PM

I honestly don't understand the idea that Amy has to special by being the boring member of the team. Her being the normal one can be interesting narratively, but this is still a game series for kids. Hitting things with a big hammer is way more appealing than holding off and giving rousing motivational speeches.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Jan 3rd 2023 at 7:22:21 AM

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70525: Jan 3rd 2023 at 4:26:27 PM

Well, there's a gameplay and narrative purpose for the character and the two may go in different directions. A hammer/combat oriented Amy for the former and a more inspirational Amy for the latter could potentially work with some smart writing.

Edited by BorneAgain on Jan 3rd 2023 at 7:28:58 AM


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