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BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70126: Dec 19th 2022 at 2:34:14 PM

This whole thing underlies the problem of not developing any other prominent characters that could act as Sonic rivals a bit more naturally. Shadow and Knuckles only really made sense for that role in their initial appearance as their overall motivations make putting them into that context after that feel more and more contrived.

Like if Mighty were brought in as a freakishly strong, boisterous, slightly big headed (but good hearted) acquaintance of Sonic's, then you could slot him into the rival spot easily, especially given how little there is to the character now. Same thing if you had a Nack somehow getting into the hero business for his own financial gain and occasional butting heads with Sonic in certain adventures.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70127: Dec 19th 2022 at 2:47:25 PM

NVM

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2022 at 2:48:20 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70128: Dec 19th 2022 at 2:57:26 PM

[up][up] Its a problem a lot of Sonic characters have. They're written with one specific story in mind and instead of leaving the series, they just....stay.

Knuckles and Shadow are two examples, but Silver is probably the worst.

Because his initial story was about coming back to fix something that happened in the future, that's what all of his appearances are.

Silver comes back for whatever adventure happens with Sonic to fix the future, they solve it, and Silver returns. And lather, rinse, repeat with Silver.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#70129: Dec 19th 2022 at 3:59:35 PM

I don't think I understand what people in this thread expect out of a rival for Sonic. A lot of "rivals" in anime tend to just be guys doing similar stuff as the hero while being a bit competitive about it or guys the hero beat before and now just stick around while talking about how they'll beat the hero in a rematch someday. It's rare for rivals to be a long-term hurdle for the hero past their original introduction.

I don't think Sonic rivals need to be constant antagonistic challenges for Sonic. They just need to be dudes you can look at and say they're somewhat on Sonic's power level.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#70130: Dec 19th 2022 at 4:13:47 PM

It's probably because people view Sonic as more western-based than he is, due to the series being more popular in the West, and a lot of its animations were Western-based, along with multiple Comics. So at times he's viewed as West-coded. It's not really correct, but I can get where it comes from.

Another is the constant "need to one-up each other" may stem from comparing it to DBZ again(which while the series does reference it/have stuff based upon it), isn't really logical due to them working entirely differently.

Also, to be fair, rivals might mean different things to people in exactly how they're portrayed as, so. It's varied either way.

Shadow?
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70131: Dec 19th 2022 at 4:27:32 PM

The thing with the franchise is that various adaptations do tend to be more western coded which tends to muddle things up when they become popular in and of themselves and you then have somewhat different sensibilities now awkward co-existing.

Speaking for myself something that was nice in the Boom TV series was that the entire tendency to write him as the best was never really a factor so you could have episodes of him competing and even losing because the focus was on the comedy anyway. Heck as dumb as Knuckles was, him being a rival in that show every once in a while arguably made more sense given the context of the setting and their characterizations.

Edited by BorneAgain on Dec 19th 2022 at 7:32:03 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70132: Dec 19th 2022 at 4:29:27 PM

I think this all comes down to the fact that The Rival trope, as it's described on this site, is incredibly broad.

There's no real qualifiers for what makes a character a rival versus just generic competition.

That's why I said its more perception. A lot of Japanese Shonen Anime rivals just tend to be dudes the hero fights once or twice and that's about it.

[up]Well Boom also isn't an Action series, its a comedy sitcom.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 19th 2022 at 7:30:23 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#70133: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:14:40 PM

I still think the idea/mandate that Sonic has to be this utterly flawless, indestructible hero is really really weird. Especially when certain parts of the fandom adopt it and cry foul whenever Sonic is written to have any kind of foibles whatsoever.

Kaze ni Nare!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70134: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:36:38 PM

Well when your entire franchise is built upon your protagonist being the embodiment of "cool", it kind of comes with the territory.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70135: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:40:26 PM

He resembles Goku in that remark.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70136: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:54:10 PM

It's probably because people view Sonic as more western-based than he is, due to the series being more popular in the West, and a lot of its animations were Western-based, along with multiple Comics

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was generally basing my take on how The Rival trope comes into play by how anime - especially the shounen Sonic is based on - tends to utilize the trope, myself.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2022 at 6:54:49 AM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70137: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:16:18 PM

Sonic Prime Producer Admits Including Shadow Was A "Challenge"

"Sonic Prime producer Logan Mc Pherson has described fitting Shadow in the show as a "challenge", as his character comes with a lot of restrictions. Even the invention of the shatterverse wasn't enough to make Shadow's inclusion any easier, as he's destined to always be the edgy boy we know and love."

Third group to say Shadow is a pain to write. But Flynn is a liar about the mandates, huh?

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70138: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:24:38 PM

Sonic and Shadow are just destined to be at odds forever huh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70139: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:28:26 PM

"Sega did not consider him a comedy character. They told us we could use him, but he was not to be making any jokes," said Sonic Boom's Alan Denton. "So to work around that, the joke became the very fact that Shadow is completely humourless. So edgy, all the time."

The Protomen enhanced my life.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70140: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:30:02 PM

Yeah. [up] I still really love Boom's response to the Shadow mandates.

"Okay, so he won't tell jokes. He'll just take all the ridiculous shenanigans so overly serious that that will be the joke instead."

And so: "your shoddy craftsmanship brings shame on all hedgehog kind, and for that you must perish!"

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2022 at 7:30:57 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70141: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:36:34 PM

You know, I could take Shadow being kind of distant and a jackass if he was still allowed to he friends with Rouge and Omega.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70142: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:48:09 PM

Only if Omega is allowed to be a jackass with him, looking down on organics while boasting himself as the superior war machine, fated to destroy the Eggman Empire to prove his strenght.

and Rouge can have any other role than Shadow's nanny.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Rabbitearsblog Movie and TV Goddess from United States Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Movie and TV Goddess
#70143: Dec 19th 2022 at 9:12:17 PM

Actually, I'm okay with Shadow still being Sonic's rival in Prime, as long as they don't have Shadow acting like an idiot.

I love animation, TV, movies, YOU NAME IT!
Tony-Sharx Megalodons are the best kind of furry. from ACME Nation Since: Mar, 2020
Megalodons are the best kind of furry.
#70144: Dec 20th 2022 at 4:47:14 AM

Re: Sonic coded western makes sense because that's the market the franchise was aimed at. The market that also made him iconic to begin with, because his success overcame Mario and Nintendo. I don't understand why Sonic needs to be examined through Japanese standards when said standards do nothing for him at home. Up until Paramount's take, no one really gave a shit about Sonic outside the west(Europe and UK included). SEGA Sonic fans hem and haw about how unfaithful Sonic's western media takes are; but then conveniently gloss over the changes made to adaptions like X and the OVA.

Sure the Rival trope described is broad, but it means something more when it's used in conjunction with pushing the protagonist. I'd argue Sonic needs more rivalry, because it sets them up to becoming long term villains so Robotnik isn't always relied on to play the main villain 24/7.

At the end of the day it's supposed to be entertainment. It's not entertaining if it's not creative.

Edited by Tony-Sharx on Dec 20th 2022 at 4:56:27 AM

Certified, self-appointed Sonic Visionary
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70145: Dec 20th 2022 at 5:05:01 AM

Because being popular in Japan has essentially been Sega's goal with Sonic since forever.

Sonic being successful in the West wasn't their what they wanted.

Also X and the OVA are the closest things to a game accurate series, particularly when you compare it to the other Western adaptations.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tony-Sharx Megalodons are the best kind of furry. from ACME Nation Since: Mar, 2020
Megalodons are the best kind of furry.
#70146: Dec 20th 2022 at 5:48:43 AM

Then what was the point of flying out to New York city to gauge people's reactions to his final design?

Using Michael Jackson's boots and cover design palette, or Bill Clinton's character as inspiration?

SEGA wanted to outsell Nintendo, ergo Sonic the Hedgehog. Biggest video game market at the time was the USA.

I'm just sayin'

Certified, self-appointed Sonic Visionary
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#70147: Dec 20th 2022 at 6:04:14 AM

RE: Rivalry.

I just like seeing Sonic and Metal Sonic fight/race more than I do with him and Shadow TBH.

Also Sonic was always intended to appeal to western audiences from the start.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 20th 2022 at 9:04:46 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Tsuzurao (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70148: Dec 20th 2022 at 6:57:30 AM

IIRC, the intent was to promote it in Japan as 'a hit in the US' as a marketing angle, rather than making it a hit for the sake of making a western-prioritizing franchise.

Tony-Sharx Megalodons are the best kind of furry. from ACME Nation Since: Mar, 2020
Megalodons are the best kind of furry.
#70149: Dec 20th 2022 at 7:16:39 AM

Imagine clutching success in a much bigger, foreign region only to just flounder and wither chasing the same result on your home turf for 30+ years onwards.

Certified, self-appointed Sonic Visionary
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70150: Dec 20th 2022 at 7:48:50 AM

Sonic is just a weird series.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

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