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lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70101: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:25:45 AM

[up][up] I think they mean the cutscene after Big Foot?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Teamkirin5 Soft Boi from You don't need to know. Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Soft Boi
#70102: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:35:11 AM

My personal opinion is that Shadow works better as a villainous rival and full-blown Evil Counterpart and Shadow Archetype to Sonic. Specifically, the two's dynamic is that they represent a possible future version of themselves, since they do share a number of core personality traits in common (Cool, arrogant, loners, they go their own way regardless of what society might say).

Shadow is what Sonic could possibly become should he suffer enough tragedy, loss, and heartbreak, a dark, brooding, cynical Angst-ridden mess hellbent on vengeance for those he loved. Meanwhile, Sonic is what Shadow could have possibly been had the ARK incident not occurred, being more positive, carefree, and idealistic.

This ties into why they have such an intense rivalry. Sonic looks at Shadow, sees what he could become, and vehemently denies and rejects the possibility of being like Shadow, while Shadow sees Sonic, and what he could have been, and furiously laments that he could have been like Sonic. In essence, "I am not like you, nor could I ever become like you!" vs. "I could have been more like you, and I hate you for being what I wish I was!"

Just my personal opinion.

We all have to answer to the call of fate when it beckons us, even if it is not at a moment of our choosing.
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#70103: Dec 19th 2022 at 6:35:21 AM

If they're referring to the cutscene after Bigfoot, then every rival gets a scene like that.

Metal Sonic kidnaps Amy right in front of Sonic, Knuckles punches out Super Sonic, Blaze takes the Sol Emerald from right in front of Sonic's eyes, Jet effortlessly blindsides Sonic and knocks him off of the Extreme Gear.

Silver's the only one who doesn't, he loses, Sonic asks if he's okay, and Silver takes a cheap shot from his opponent's compassion to regain the upper hand.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70104: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:07:45 AM

You gotta look at the details.

Metal simply kidnaps Amy and doesn't have much of a presence until hiss race boss fight.

Knuckles more or less sucker punches Sonic and spends the game using trickery and deception. And when its time to knuckle down, he's the easiest boss fight in the entire game.

Blaze never fights Sonic before Zone 7 and he's trying to talk her down the entire fight.

Shadow and Jet are explicitly the only ones who one up Sonic in his field, that being his speed. Shadow with Chaos Control and Jet with Extreme Gear and both games are about Sonic needing to master a new skill to close the gap.

That's classic rival writing 101 and you see it in games like Devil May Cry and other games made by PlatinumGames.

There's a reason Vergil is the Trope Codifier for video game rivals. Hilariously, Shadow predates Vergil's DMC3 incarnation by a few years, so Shadow was doing them first lol.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 19th 2022 at 10:09:06 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#70105: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:19:51 AM

You really think Metal Sonic kidnapping Amy is just something out of the blue? It does it right in front of Sonic's eyes, and Sonic is completely unable to do anything about it. You could say "game mechanics", but this is clearly a scripted sequence meant to convey that Sonic, with all of his speed, was unable to stop Metal Sonic. Not to mention casually busting through an obstacle that would kill Sonic.

And yeah sure Knuckles largely uses trickery the entire game - but his introduction is still smacking the Super out of Super Sonic, and from there Sonic's busting into Knuckles's home turf without any help beyond his plucky fox friend. Not to mention that, at the time, Knuckles was ultimately the only other individual who could display a super transformation (and a hyper transformation by proxy), further showcasing their similarity in strength.

Oh look, they both also predate Vergil, and thus also predate the codified frame of how videogame rivals work. It's not like Shadow is unique in that area.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70106: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:31:23 AM

Numbuh I feel you have an issue with Shadow being the most popular rival in the series and thus, gets more preferential treatment. Because you're putting in an awful lot of effort to downplay his impact. You can feel however you want about that, I'm just establishing facts is all.

I literally said I'd prefer if they used him less too, but they know how marketable he is so there's no reason for them not to.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 19th 2022 at 10:32:55 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70107: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:32:48 AM

This stuff about Rivals is long. I'm not gonna read all of it. I will say something about this:

And nobody ever takes Jet seriously as a rival nowadays lol. Even Ian Flynn just thinks he's a poser and a Smug Snake.

See, I'm not totally sure about that. Flynn did write Jet as refusing to abandon his team to Master Zik and the Zombots, successfully taking Zik down, taking the Chaos Emerald and sending it to Sonic, then leading Wave and Storm to seemingly surviving the Zombot plague (we see them surrounded befor Sonic cures everyone, then see them celebrating afterwards, with the implication being they managed to hold out and avoid infection entirely, despite being neck deep in Zombots at the time).

That's not something you do for someone you see as a joke.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70108: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:33:45 AM

I didn't say he didn't write him well. Just that Flynn exaggerates his blowhard traits more as opposed to the skills he has that match up to Sonic's.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70109: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:37:54 AM

Ah. That's fair enough.

You gotta give it to Flynn for respecting even the characters he doesn't like. I think he always tries to keep them in character, and show them some level of respect.

Not many writers bother with that.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70110: Dec 19th 2022 at 7:43:40 AM

Its a good attitude to try and use characters in a way that can benefit the series as opposed to just writing them out simply because they're unpopular with the fanbase.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70111: Dec 19th 2022 at 8:49:59 AM

According to Ian Flynn Sonic does not have a forklift-driving license because he also doesn't have a regular driver's license. XD

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70112: Dec 19th 2022 at 8:58:28 AM

Well, he tries with unpopular characters. Flynn's the only one who used Zavok because he wanted to, unlike the rest who were told to use him to fill a quota.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70113: Dec 19th 2022 at 9:34:30 AM

Ken Penders is rightfully ducked on as a writer, which makes it even sadder that he's the only Sonic writer who ever tried to do anything more with one of Sonic old rivals besides relegating him to a tiresome role.

When I first heard about the Knuckles expanded universe in the comics I was seriously interested because that type of thing never happens with these type of rivals unless their lore is actually the basis of the plot, but Knuckles and Sonic having their own distinct lore and rouges gallery meant they could stand as narrative equals instead of it being either a Sasuke or Vegeta situation.

Instead the more I looked into it, the more it disappointed me because of Penders being Penders about the whole thing. A lot of the better ideas are wasted on underwhelming things and everything else is just bleh. No wonder Sonic Team mandates so goddamn much just WHAT any Sonic character is allowed to be. Penders poisoned the well.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70114: Dec 19th 2022 at 9:53:46 AM

IIRC the Knuckles ideas were originally ones he had for Sonic. Sega vetoed that, but were fine with using that lore for Knuckles at the time.

Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 19th 2022 at 12:53:53 PM

The Protomen enhanced my life.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70115: Dec 19th 2022 at 10:01:30 AM

Yeah that's another reason that disappointed me. All of Pender's terrible lore for Knuckles was originally Sonic's terrible lore. None of the rivals are even the first thought in cases like this.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#70116: Dec 19th 2022 at 10:14:12 AM

The problem wasn't the lore persay. The fact that Knuckles was part of this long line of guardian who protect Angel Island and the Master Emerald is fine. The part when these two brothers create this device that they can use to harness the Master Emerald's power, but then it backfires and bombards one of them with a ton of Chaos energy, giving him incredible power. That's not the problem. The problem is that the actual stories Penders tells using this lore just don't work. Events that should be super important are glossed over, and everything feels rushed. Often things make no sense, like how apparently Enerjak was defeated by some ants tunneling so that the mountain he was in collapsed on top of him, even though everyone else made it out unscathed, and Enerjak can teleport. There's good ideas in those comics, it's just that the execution of those ideas is terrible.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70117: Dec 19th 2022 at 10:18:24 AM

I know the lore itself isn't the problem. Hence why I said " A lot of the better ideas are wasted on underwhelming things and everything else is just bleh" earlier.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#70118: Dec 19th 2022 at 10:19:50 AM

Ian Flynn gave Knuckles his own supporting cast in the archie comics post reboot, and that was a better job of giving Knuckles stuff to do while still being on Angel Island.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70119: Dec 19th 2022 at 10:40:29 AM

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with the idea that what makes a rival is that they're strong enough that the hero can't beat them. Rival characters don't need to constantly win to be considered rivals - indeed, most of the most famous rival characters in media are constant losers, save for brief periods where they suddenly become stronger for dramatic purposes. It's more a personality and character role thing than a strength thing.

I think the reason rivals for Sonic don't work well is because Sonic stories don't really have room for the rival thing - characters don't enter Sonic's stories just for the chance to beat Sonic, they enter Sonic stories because they want to do other important things things, and only fight Sonic if they perceive Sonic as getting in the way of those other things.

Like Knuckles. Sega says Knuckles is Sonic's rival, but he never has been. Knuckles has a big, all-encompassing job. He has a life. And he's never been particularly interested in dedicating part of that life to being better than Sonic - he's only ever fought Sonic when misled into thinking Sonic is a threat. Sonic Team has attempted to write him like that in one or two games, but it never worked out.

What Knuckles is is The Lancer - the guy on the team who challenges Sonic's role as "leader", but for benevolent reasons. But... yeah. Being The Rival doesn't really fit his character.

I wrote a bit a few pages ago about how being The Rival doesn't really fit Shadow either for similar reasons, but the character literally has nothing else to do now so Sonic Team has fairly recently starting more stringently forcing him in into it.

Really, of all the characters they've ever tried to bill as The Rival, I'd argue only two of them have ever really matched the concept of the trope: Jet and Metal Sonic. And one of them is an arc antagonist for a very specific set of spinoffs, and the other is severely Out of Focus.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#70120: Dec 19th 2022 at 10:53:54 AM

I don't think a character necessarily needs to fight the hero often to be a rival to him. There's a lot characters who can be called The Lancer who are called rivals by Japanese media.

In this sense, Knuckles is a rival to Sonic. He's not one that directly wants to beat Sonic in a fight or race necessarily, more that if Sonic is getting involved in something then Knuckles wants to join in too so as to not get "shown up". It's less "competing to see who's stronger" and more "competing to see who's The Hero".

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70121: Dec 19th 2022 at 11:01:26 AM

I don't think Knuckles does much competing with Sonic about anything across his entire existence, is the thing. Not even about being The Hero. Same with Shadow: Shadow previously had almost never interacted with Sonic on the grounds of competition, but "you're screwing up, I can do better!" is arguably like all he's about nowadays.

Frontiers (which for both Knuckles and Tails did a fair amount of Character Rerailment) is the first time I can recall Knuckles ever being characterized as "I could've done this way better than you if I only had the chance" (except for maybe like one line in Lost World) and even then it's mostly him just taking the piss out of Sonic to motivate him.

Finally, I don't agree that Japanese media tends to treat characters as rivals who don't generally act like rivals, but instead just have a generally contentious role. Especially shounen. Shounen tends to be very explicit about which characters in the character dynamic are "the rival," what being the rival means they want, and how that makes them interact with others. It's a pretty standard trope.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2022 at 11:19:42 AM

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#70122: Dec 19th 2022 at 11:24:58 AM

He is described in the manuals for Drift 2 and R as joining in those races to beat Sonic, him and Sonic shit-talk each other some in Adventure and Knuckles says before the final boss that it stings he has to leave it to Sonic, and he also made a similar "I could have done it better than you" type comment in Generations. His theme song in Adventure had a couple lines about Sonic that suggest some antagonism ("You can call me Knuckles, unlike Sonic I don't chuckle" "Don't approve of him but gotta trust him This alliance has a purpose This partnership is only temporary").

There's definitely something there that Knuckles is intended to be a rival to Sonic, it's just never been used in any obvious way after Shadow showed up and Sonic Team decided to make Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles a trio always teaming up. (Except if I remember right for the Bioware writers having some tension between Sonic and Knuckles early on in Chronicles.)

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#70123: Dec 19th 2022 at 11:27:29 AM

I just see rivals as antagonists who push the hero out of their confort zone. Say, many sports anime rivals like Aomine from Kuroko no Basuke, where he feels unbeatable. However, the line between rivals and villains is kind of blurry.

In that way, I see all Sonic rivals as, well, rivals in their debut title, but not afterwards. And unfortunately that's true of rivals in sports anime, but its easier to digest in sport series because, sports man.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70124: Dec 19th 2022 at 1:34:57 PM

[up][up] The fact that most of those things are not even things in the plot of those games (the OST, the English manuals, etc) just speaks to my point. Knuckles isn't at all written like a rival and isn't really an example of that kind of characer, but Sonic Team likes to sort of claim he is.

Basically, he has a reputation that the character doesn't actually match. Show, Don't Tell and all. Sonic Team does a lot of claiming Shadow is Sonic's rival too, but again they haven't really written him that way until very recently.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2022 at 1:58:33 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70125: Dec 19th 2022 at 2:03:39 PM

In this case, perception tends to matter more than reality in how these things are viewed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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