There's a reason I don't bother interacting with Sonic fans at large anymore. Better for my mental health.
Anyway, I don't mind Shadow being ANGEEEERY or beating Sonic's ass...I like seeing that a lot actually. My problem is more that's all we ever see him do anymore.
Like, you can still have him be a rival to Sonic while still doing his own thing with Team Dark. But Sega don't seem to agree with that and are like "No, Shadow can't do anything else if he isn't fighting Sonic" and I'm like....man...
I have problems with how Ian Flynn wrote Shadow in Archie, particularly pre-reboot. But I have to kind of give him credit for trying to take the character in a direction that tries to build off what the games did and didn't just use him as a token rival for Sonic.
Post-Reboot!Shadow even had a rivalry with Knuckles. And he was actually friends with Rouge and Omega?? Imagine that....
So I completely get his annoyance when he's no longer allowed to portray the group as friends anymore.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.The thesis here is that when people see things they like they get enthusiastic about it.
So like every time Mike Pollock comes back to voice Dr. Eggman.
In other words like being a fan of anything and not meeting everything with skepticism.
I disagree with this. I think this is just covert tribalism.
Sonic fans are not mercurial or bipolar. We are, all of us in this thread, Sonic fans. Having disagreements with a larger group of people is not being mercurial. That's politics. That's human existence.
I really don't understand anymore why this opinion exists. Any fanbase has a vocal group of critics and supporters. That's literally every fanbase. There is no collective unconscious of bad Sonic fans meeting in the Fortress of Doom turning the light switches on and off. There's just the people who go on Youtube and social media to spit out their shower thoughts and people who don't.
I'm honestly really tired of hearing "the Sonic fanbase (excluding me and the reader) is [insert negative trait here] because they liked one game (that I liked) and disliked another game (that I did like)."
Edited by FOFD on Dec 18th 2022 at 1:35:51 PM
As far as I’m concerned, any change in the right direction is welcome.
Such as steering away from the whole Edgy the Hedgy BS (thanks a bunch Sega Mandates and Colors era derailment).
If executed properly, Shadow is capable of being an effective and credable Hero Antagonist. Example: his motivation in Sonic Battle can be summed up as “Emeril is a massive threat to the world’s safety and A LOT of innocent are going to die if he fully awakens”. The finale proved he was right.
Shadow's theme song should be this
Its 'In the shadows- by Rasmus
have a listen and have a link to my discord serverNobody's really gonna disagree with that...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Jet is a more fun rival character-wise, but he is not on par with Sonic. If anything, he and the Babylon Rogues are better rivals to Rouge and/or Knuckles. They share a sphere of interest (treasure hunting) and are roughly on par power-wise.
What Shadow needs is a personal nemesis apart from Sonic or Eggman. All his other enemies are either dead or not coming back without an Ass Pull, so Sonic and Eggman are the only people he can consistently oppose.
Edited by Negacube on Dec 19th 2022 at 3:30:52 PM
Having an actual rival for Sonic is kind of hard when you think about it.
Since Sonic is designed to be the coolest, most powerfulest, person ever who can do anything, nobody can ever really rival him without getting left behind eventually.
Its why nobody took Knuckles seriously after a while when he was constantly tricked into fighting Sonic and made to look dumb as a result.
And nobody ever takes Jet seriously as a rival nowadays lol. Even Ian Flynn just thinks he's a poser and a Smug Snake.
So of course the only character who could conceivably rival Sonic is another character designed to be the coolest, most powerfulest person who can do anything, and Shadow (and Blaze to an extent) are the only ones who fit that description.
I remember Iizuka even said they explicitly designed Shadow to be cooler than Sonic. So if Sonic is already supposed to be the coolest person ever, and you make a character who's supposed to be even cooler...well.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Yeah the way Sonic is mandated to be written no one's allowed to challenge him in any interesting way. Knuckles isn't allowed to be his equal but thematic opposite (Super-Speed versus Super-Strength), Jet can't be someone who challenges Sonic's running speed with his knowledge and mastery of Extreme Gear because Sonic also has to use Extreme Gear in the Rider's games and Wave exists so you can't make Jet a Gadgeteer Genius that upgrades his gear to challenge Sonic on his own.
I don't really agree with that notion. And even if I did, that doesn't exclude Shadow from that possibility. Afterall, their fight in Heroes feels just as forced as all of the others, his fight in Shadow 05 focused more on Diablon rather than justify how to take down Sonic, and they don't even fight in 06 - and then when Shadow does appear it's alongside other rivals ("Blaze" and "Knuckles" in Black Knight, Metal Sonic and Silver* in 06), so it's kind of tough to suggest that Shadow's still a functional rival to Sonic when he actually just split off to do his own thing and then started getting lumped in with the other rivals. It really is just a case of him being forced into the rival role because he's popular.
If anything, it's Metal Sonic who's managed to cling onto the rival position the longest by virtue of his only two motivations in the franchise being fighting Sonic, and serving Eggman (which leads to him fighting Sonic).
(*Silver is technically a rival, given Sonic Rivals 1, Black Knight's knights all being based off of his various rivals, and the fights in Generations being considered rival fights. If you can't see how he's a rival to Sonic, I agree with you there lmao.)
Edited by Numbuh1234 on Dec 19th 2022 at 9:33:20 PM
You're missing the point. Its not about Shadow being a functional rival to Sonic, but the rather Shadow was conceptualized from the ground up, as an equal or superior to Sonic. Blaze as well.
Which is something none of the other rivals really have. Like I said, Knuckles/Silver were tricked, and Jet is only a rival as far as Extreme Gear is concerned, which is no longer relevant and as such, Jet doesn't really appear much. Blaze kind of gets a similar treatment when she's not being shackled to Silver, but she's not as readily available as Shadow is, being in another dimension and all.
As far as Metal Sonic is concerned, he's firmly an antagonist and his whole point is that he is explicitly inferior to Sonic due to being a robot.
This isn't talking about which one you prefer or like more, I don't really care. I'm just explaining why Sonic having a rival doesn't really work for him as a character long term and why Shadow is usually thrusted into that role.
Its less his popularity and more he's the only one the writers and fans could conceivably take seriously as someone that could beat Sonic with no strings attached.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 19th 2022 at 7:14:18 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I'm reminded that none of Goku's Rivals were that relevant after their defeat. Only Vegeta stood around because of his role in the Saiyan saga.
Now at days he's an eyesore with his "i'll be number one stick" that he never gris out of.
Piccolo Best rival btw
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.Apparently the writers for Sonic Prime have said it's canon to the games?
The Protomen enhanced my life.It is at least very game accurate when it's in Sonic's world.
They even remembered Rouge is usually not a member of Sonic's team and didn't have the cast act like she was always a member.
Also Sonic collects rings to protect himself.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 19th 2022 at 8:06:44 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"You can have a rival be a villain.
Not to mention, Metal Sonic was conceptualised to be faster than Sonic as well, and something where you had to prove your speed against him in order to beat him. There's a reason Stardust Speedway is Sonic CD's most iconic moment by far.
And sure, Knuckles Blaze and Silver were all meant to be one and done for Sonic, but so was Shadow. They were all meant to be characters who existed primarily for one game, with only Knuckles and Blaze having justifiable reasons to show up at all after their debut (Shadow had to be revived, and Silver had to have the devs decide "okay so his future he was born in was undone? Let's just ignore that and re-introduce him".
Shadow's story in SA 2 even included him deeming Sonic as the true Ultimate Lifeform during the game's climax (... in gameplay dialogue... that was missable).
Yes and Metal lost, thus establishing Sonic is superior. Its the whole basis of his personality shift in Heroes where he can't beat Sonic no matter what and snapped.
And no, Knuckles and Blaze do not have more justified reasons to return. The former especially so.
Most Knuckles' appearances just reduce him to another one of Sonic's friends with none of the lore surrounding the Master Emerald being relevant.
Its one of the main reasons people feel his appearances have been so lackluster.
And like I said, Blaze is usually just shackled to Silver nowadays.
It feels weird to say those are "justified" when they explicitly go against the characters initial motivation and design.
I'm not even saying I prefer Shadow, I wish they used him less too. But similarly to Vegeta, he's just too iconic as a rival to Sonic to keep out of the spotlight for too long without the fans crying foul.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 19th 2022 at 8:49:55 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Metal Sonic lost, yes, but he came back in Triple Trouble. And R. And the Fighters. It is Eggman's star Sonic robot that appeared when the others didn't. And after Heroes? A few years of retirement before being thrust straight back into that villain rival position. Not to mention that Metal Sonic is a robot made and (mostly) controlled by the main villain of the franchise.
If Metal Sonic isn't good enough, it's really easy to justify Eggman upgrading Metal Sonic to perform even better. To insinuate otherwise would imply that Eggman stopped being a threat once he lost in Sonic 1 (despite continuing to be a threat over the franchise history and ultimately taking over the whole planet in Forces).
Regardless, it's not like a character instantly stops being a rival the moment they lose, Jet lost in Sonic Riders, and yet his rivalry with Sonic was continued full force in Zero Gravity, with that game even ending in a tie between the two and a promise to settle it next time at the World Grand Prix.
And yes, Knuckles and Blaze do have a better excuse. Knuckles can be called over when his gem is in trouble, Blaze can be called over when her gems are in trouble. This is easier to justify than "literally dead" or "literally ceased to exist". Are those pretty hard to justify excuses? Yes, but it's still easier than the alternatives.
Besides that, Shadow was also created within the lore(after more story was added) so that he had alien blood, and chaos powers. In general, he's been on par or faster than Sonic(with a rare exception when he goes slower).
Most of the time, he does beat Sonic or is superior to him. The Boom series aside, but that's a different Shadow. It's even notable where the ending of Adventure 2's Dark Story is the one that leads directly into the Last Story, so even then, Shadow defeats Sonic overall in his first canon appearance.
This isn't the case for Metal Sonic, Jet, or Knuckles. Shadow has been canonically superior, not just "made to be". That's the core difference and why Shadow works better as a rival. He's stronger and gives Sonic a reason to get stronger. Unfortunately, the formula doesn't make that work well, since power levels aren't relevant to the franchise. Which means any rival to Sonic doesn't flow that well either way. They can only do so much at that point.
The only real thing the robotic Sonic copies have had were put into gameplay situations where they had minor advantages(like no rings on your part), but they generally aren't shown to be superior. Just on par with Sonic, or weaker. Metal Sonic in Heroes was a rare case where he did "level up", and after that, they dropped the concept pretty hard. Sometimes Metal Sonic in Multiplayer has slightly more speed or a unique ability, but he had his own identity for a while anyway. Simply having a little more speed isn't enough to be a rival to Sonic. But as noted before, Sonic is already the fastest thing alive, so making a plausible rival is rather difficult to properly write out. It was easy with Goku because he was strong, but still had a lot of ways to go. The power levels thing worked, for better or worse, to allow for it~
Shadow?Shadow didn't win at the end of SA 2. Not only does Tails Tube #2 directly contradict that notion (with Sonic talking about how he "wiped the floor with [Shadow] at the beginning), but Shadow also states an intent to kill in SA 2 itself, and thus him winning would've led to him carrying out that intent.
You're right that the Dark Story better leads into it, since Eggman was the reason Shadow even went after Sonic in the original, and that couldn't have happened in the Hero Story perspective (given Eggman only got the Chaos Emerald once Sonic had already destroyed the cannon, despite Dark Story having him claim he got the final emerald way before that ever happened).

I agree with Yakuzu about how damn mercurial and almost bipolar Sonic fans can get, suddenly deciding apropos of nothing that this or that Sonic...thing is bad/good.
Are explosions science?