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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69976: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:10:13 PM

The Classic games never really had this problem...due to technical limitations. They could be whatever the fuck you wanted them to be.

That stopped being able after Sonic Adventure.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69977: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:14:52 PM

So Sonic "started sucking" when Sonic Team took the imagination out of the player.

I'll accept that compromise.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#69978: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:16:24 PM

Me, I've read enough manga and Disney comics to the point where seeing cartoony character designs and serious plots doesn't feel jarring at all.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#69979: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:23:49 PM

None of us on any side can really back up any notions of what the kids want because kids young enough to be Sonic's target audience aren't on the internet much in a vocal capacity. I'm just saying from Sega's perspective, Sonic's "edginess" in the 2000s wasn't meant to attract teens and adults that played it in the 90s, it was to appeal to kids that were attracted to the 2000s brand of 'tude. It's just a continuation of what they were doing in the 90s with Sonic being the "cooler" alternative to Mario.

And whole thing people do with acting like 2000s Sonic was weird is so dumb. It wasn't much different tonally than kids anime like Digimon. I don't see people going around complaining about how Digimon are too silly looking to take seriously in a dark plotline. You could argue that Digimon isn't as nearly as popular as Sonic, but that's kind of what I'm getting at. Sonic is just given unfair criticisms that other stuff doesn't because Sonic's Western marketing in the 90s was too effective. It gave a lot of people an image of Sonic in their head that doesn't gel with the reality that Sonic being the "cool" mascot and primarily made in Japan, the franchise frequently dips into storytelling tropes that are considered normal enough for cute-looking characters in kids anime to be involved in but are not normal for American cartoons.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69980: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:30:52 PM

Keep in mind, Anime has this issue too in the West; look how many people write off shows just because they feature cute Anime girls. Even when Anime has become more mainstream than its ever been, there's still a bit of a stigma in that being an Anime fan must mean you are some type of degenerate who likes Ecchi (I am, but that's beside the point)

But in Sonic's case, it's because its' demographic is too broad and loose it feels like; its not meant to appeal to adults, but it's also not exclusively for kids either. If you wanna be technical, you can say Sonic is tweens/teens...but those same fans eventually age out of the demographic and they'll either see Sonic as "cringe" or have nostalgic memories of it from when they were kids.

Its happened too; Classic fans who were pre-teens and teens in the 90's eventually aged out of the series when it shifted in the 2000's. And fans who grew up in the 2000's eventually grew out of the storylines when the series shifted in 2010.

So yea, it's never-ending cycle it seems like.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69981: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:32:40 PM

As both a One Piece Fan and a Zatch Bell! fan (Zatch Bell! 2 motherfuckers!), cartoony character designs barely phase me anymore.

You can still do pretty serious plots even if your characters look ridiculous. One Piece deliberately gave it's main character the goofiest powers ever, so that even in the most serious and bloody fight, there'd still be some humour.

As for Zatch bell....it's got shit like this:

Do all of you want to know that that stupid looking robot (that transformed in the slightly less stupid looking robot) did? He beat the heroes asses. He lost, but he spent a lot of that fight wiping the floor with them.

Sometimes, the cartoony style can be a good contrast to more serious moments, and actually give a work something unique. It requires skill to walk that tight rope though.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69982: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:34:48 PM

Like I said; we grew up on this shit...it's like second-nature to us. I'm specifically talking about people who didn't grow up watching Dragon Ball every single fucking like a a lunatic.....its me, I'm the lunatic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69983: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:37:12 PM

and unfortunately, that includes Yatzee, as he isn't fond of anime games. Meaning Sonic's shonen-eske nonsense just looks like hot garbage to him.

The rodent can't ever please everyone.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69984: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:37:26 PM

I mean, if you're a lunatic, then what the hell are the rest of us? Sane?

Hell no.[lol]

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69985: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:44:43 PM

[up][up] That's a lot of older fans in fact; I remember speaking to someone on Sonic Retro, in their thirties and grew up in the UK, where the Anime boom never occurred.

So Sonic suddenly going all over the top and introducing characters like Shadow was just so weird to him at the time and even to this day, he still can't comprehend why that era of Sonic is looked at so fondly and was kind of dismayed at Frontiers for returning to it.

Even Josh from Greek Critique doesn't really know how to feel about Frontiers, since he has specifically noted that he is not fond of the over the top Animesce stuff that Sonic does either and is more of a fan of lighthearted material.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 15th 2022 at 10:45:58 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#69986: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:49:25 PM

It also didn't help that Sonic had three cartoons with a different aesthetic and plot (OTOH two of said cartoons are pretty dark in their own right)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Dec 15th 2022 at 7:49:38 AM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69987: Dec 15th 2022 at 7:56:37 PM

However, the charts don't lie.

Despite the high quality of Mania, it sold much less than Forces and now Frontiers, so the retro appeal isn't as strong as animeske Sonic material. So might as well enjoy what kids enjoy.

Even if Forces was utter garbage and Infinite the worst character in the whole franchise.

Edited by Tomodachi on Dec 15th 2022 at 7:57:39 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69988: Dec 15th 2022 at 8:04:21 PM

That's because Classic Sonic has been out of the public zeitgeist since...forever. The Modern design has been the default design for twenty-four years now, over half the series' entire lifespan.

Classic Sonic is only remembered and appealing by the specific group of fans who grew up in the early 90's with it, while the Modern design is the one kids are going to see everywhere on merch and whatnot.

Just look at the way Mania gets treated; its not treated like a "real" Sonic game by many people despite encompassing the foundational gameplay style for the series. Its been too long.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69989: Dec 15th 2022 at 8:18:12 PM

Sounds like a plausible observation, you're right.

By the way, Twitter is making a bit of a scandal because Man of Action wants to pretend Sonic Prime is canon. Ignoring the fact multiple companies have been throwing around that word, because a bunch of nerds care about "canon", I'll just tell you to ignore their statements. It's not Fanon Discontinuity, is just me being aware of marketing talk.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#69990: Dec 15th 2022 at 9:28:44 PM

When it comes to those sorts of things, it's one way canon, like how Alien vs. Predator is only canon to one of those franchises.

The games will never reference the events of Prime in any meaningful way, so it's fine to call it canon, why not.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69991: Dec 15th 2022 at 9:35:18 PM

Canon in regards to stuff like this only matters if something can actually happen in the main series too.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Vertigo_High Since: May, 2010
#69992: Dec 15th 2022 at 10:55:45 PM

Prime giving Metal sonic new shipping material.

magnum12 Since: Aug, 2009
#69993: Dec 16th 2022 at 2:56:55 AM

Prime gives me hope for Shadow’s future characterization. Please let the games go back to the 06 depiction. That fight scene he had a good reason for wanting to pummel Sonic.

The voice sounds pretty good too.

Speaking of V As:

I knew Collen would be the best Tails from the moment I played Tales Of Symphonia. Genis Sage is literately exactly the kind of person that would make a good match for Tails.

Boom shows that Roger Craig Smith and Cindy Robinson are the best fits for Sonic and Amy if given proper direction and circumstances.

Erica Lindbeck is talented. She just needs more time with Blaze.

As for one off characters, Xanthe Huynh is the best fit for Vanilla. Anyone who has seen Maquia When The Promised Flower Blooms knows she’s very capable of doing motherly characters.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69994: Dec 16th 2022 at 3:01:14 AM

>Shadow is still a massive dick in Prime.

Isn't this what people have been complaining about? I'm confused.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 16th 2022 at 6:02:39 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#69995: Dec 16th 2022 at 3:13:29 AM

Sonic's design/cast of characters being able to work in a light hearted or more serious context (as well as a Westernized or anime tone) is both a blessing and a curse. On one hand its allowed a remarkable range of adaptations and media for a franchise only 30 years old and given it all kinds of fans.

However it also means that can easily look at Sonic and conclude he works best in this type of a story (whatever that is) and not really be practically wrong. As noted the minimalist nature of the classic series meant you could apply any tone or broader world to the games and it would essentially fit and even in a post Adventure era merging of canons, broader franchise media has still tended to do its own thing and pull it off.

X and Boom are incredibly different shows but (respective flaws aside) largely work as Sonic series given what they're going for.

Edited by BorneAgain on Dec 16th 2022 at 6:14:53 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69996: Dec 16th 2022 at 4:24:11 AM

Mario kind of hits that sweet spot of it being both appealing to children and adults alike, all without changing anything fundamental about itself

Mario is still saving Peach from Bowser to this day, but you can't really say the same for Sonic.

Sonic tends to chase trends, while Mario just stays true to itself.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 16th 2022 at 7:25:11 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
magnum12 Since: Aug, 2009
#69997: Dec 16th 2022 at 5:14:31 AM

[up] Prime seems more like a good intentioned but wrathful Anti-Hero.

Good Is Not Nice rather than just a dick.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69998: Dec 16th 2022 at 5:22:12 AM

...and how is this any different from the depictions people have been complaining about?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#69999: Dec 16th 2022 at 5:25:03 AM

The previous version from Boom was more of an antagonistic jerk.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#70000: Dec 16th 2022 at 5:28:55 AM

Boom Shadow was an outright villain for no defined reason as far as I know.

The Protomen enhanced my life.

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