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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69876: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:16:30 AM

Sonic is the type of character where personal stories challenge his ability and worldviews...

He doesn't have to be flawed in the sense that he needs to grow out of any shortcomings, but he can't always be right or always on top either.

—-

IDW is treating Sonic wanting to reform his enemies as a flaw and it's not really working, because it's also acting like it's not meant to be one...which is why it has come up multiple times.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69877: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:22:33 AM

That's a better argument, yeah.

Luffy has the fortune that he is written by the same guy for two decades. Sonic never had a consistent writer, just a character bio on what he is supposedly like and a bunch of writers from two different cultures trying to see what his deal is.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69878: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:27:26 AM

Same thing with Goku really. He's always been portrayed by Toriyama.

Sonic is subject to a LOT of Alternate Character Interpretations due to the nature of the series and how many different versions of the characters there are.

You have a bunch of general traits but they're interpreted differently depending on who's writing him.

Its like that with all of the characters really.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 12th 2022 at 9:28:39 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#69879: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:30:10 AM

Who would you say the most consistently-written character has been?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69880: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:33:12 AM

Up until now...

Charmy the Bee.

Sorry, I meant Charmy Bee.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69881: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:47:13 AM

[up][up] None of them lol.

But if I had to chooose.....I dunno, Blaze? And that's only because she doesn't show up enough to get different interpretations out of her.

Edit: Actually no, its Metal Sonic. He literally has one role; fight Sonic. And since he doesn't have a voice, his personality can simply be interpreted by the audience.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 12th 2022 at 9:49:13 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#69882: Dec 12th 2022 at 7:13:50 AM

I think that it's better to not address an issue, than to address an issue and not give it e remotely satisfying answer. That's why when a lot of media tries to tackle serious issues and fails, they get a lot of flak for it. If you're raising questions about things, there better be a legitimate answer. It's why none of the IDW stuff has worked for me. And they keep going back to that well.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69883: Dec 12th 2022 at 7:17:55 AM

That's Comic Book writing in a nutshell lol. Presenting interesting questions and ideas before backpedaling on them to maintain the status quo.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69884: Dec 12th 2022 at 7:53:34 AM

"Why doesn't Batman just kiss the Joker?" - James Gordon and the counsil of Gordons in 4chan.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#69885: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:00:43 AM

While this might be true in theory, in practice it essentially translates to Sonic being the only who can actually accomplish anything of importance most of the time.

Can't exactly blame people for wanting the characters to strike on their own as opposed to being stuck in Sonic's shadow.

Disagree. The characters being personally affected by Sonic doesn't automatically mean Sonic is doing everything. Each character can still accomplish things that give them enough spotlight. For a basic example, just look the first Adventure. The characters don't do anything because people conplained that Sonic wasn't getting enough attention, so now it's all Sonic only Sonic all the time. You can't complain about Sonic getting overshadowed by other characters and other characters getting overshadowed by Sonic at the same time.

Speaking of, in Sonic Prime his big character flaw is that Sonic has an inability to listen to his friends' warnings and fears, and chooses to heroically but impulsively speed ahead instead.

Thing is, I hate that shit. Overconfidence and impulsiveness are the most basic bitch characters flaws American writers all give their heroes. It's like the male action equivalent to "clumsy" for female romance character. And they never really develop past that in any serialized story because the Status Quo Is God, and if developed they would now be flawless for the rest of the story.

I don't want to watch Sonic have to go through "learning" not be overconfident every single game because the creators think he's both the only character that matters or else he's getting overshadowed, but also he's boring if he doesn't have an obvious flaw that gets him trouble every time.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69886: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:11:14 AM

Disagree. The characters being personally affected by Sonic doesn't automatically mean Sonic is doing everything. Each character can still accomplish things that give them enough spotlight. For a basic example, just look the first Adventure. The characters don't do anything because people conplained that Sonic wasn't getting enough attention, so now it's all Sonic only Sonic all the time. You can't complain about Sonic getting overshadowed by other characters and other characters getting overshadowed by Sonic at the same time.

Well that's where we're at right now lmao. At the end of the day, Sonic's a video game series and people want to play as him as opposed to the supporting cast. That's not to say you can't have anyone else, but even in Sonic Adventure, the secondary character's playstyles were very undercooked compared to Sonic's. Which leads to the thought of "Why is this here?"

So Sonic either has to share the spotlight with lesser playstyles taking focus from him, or the focus is solely on him to the detriment of everyone else.

Thing is, I hate that shit. Overconfidence and impulsiveness are the most basic bitch characters flaws American writers all give their heroes. It's like the male action equivalent to "clumsy" for female romance character. And they never really develop past that in any serialized story because the Status Quo Is God, and if developed they would now be flawless for the rest of the story.

I don't want to watch Sonic have to go through "learning" not be overconfident every single game because the creators think he's both the only character that matters or else he's getting overshadowed, but also he's boring if he doesn't have an obvious flaw that gets him trouble every time.

I'm inclined to agree, especially since how extremely common it is.

At the same time though, I get why its used because a lead with no flaws to overcome is often perceived as "boring". Its the Superman dilemma; he's too strong where nothing can reasonably challenge him, at least on a physical level, which leads to readers not being invested in his stories. So they compensate by giving Supes personal flaws to overcome.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69887: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:20:18 AM

When will Sonic have his own Captain Cold, tho?

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#69888: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:22:53 AM

And by that you mean...

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69889: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:25:17 AM

A villain that can counteract his natural ability. Cold can freeze the Flash, which has allowed him the upper hand in multiple occasions. I don't think Sonic has ever been counteracted.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69890: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:39:27 AM

Because as far the series is concerned, Sonic has no actual weakness.

The adaptations had to invent one with making him afraid of water.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#69891: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:55:21 AM

Btw, Flynn answered a Frontiers question. Will Sage turn Eggman softer?

He answered: he can't speak for the direction the Sonic Team staff will go on, but he suggests Eggman will be worse now because the doc will dote his daughter in destructive ways. Kyle says "but I thought Sage turned good", and Flynn answers Why?

I felt dread and amusement.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#69892: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:57:19 AM

The hell?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#69893: Dec 12th 2022 at 9:02:08 AM

The thing with a character like Sonic (as written throughout the Adventure era and 2000s) is that he works best working with other characters who are actually the core of the plot.

Let's go through the games, and we could actually start with Sonic 3. There's no dialogue, but there is a clear plotline with character development going on, but it's not Sonic, it's Knuckles.
Adventure 1's various plotlines is more about re-introducing every character in this new voice acted environment. As far a "main plot" goes that the final story focuses on, the emotional center is Chaos and Tikal, Sonic is just there to help.
Adventure 2 is primarily about Shadow. Rush is about Blaze. The Sonic and final campaigns in 06 are about Elise. Secret Rings is about Shahra. Rush Adventure is about Marine. Riders and Zero Gravity are about Jet. Unleashed is about Chip. Black Knight is about Merlina and the three knights. Sonic himself doesn't change as part of these, but he does face new hardships dealing with each plot and serves as a catalyst for other characters' developments.

I think some feelings about each game's writing can even track to how people like these characters. You see more praise for SA2 and Rush because people like Shadow and Blaze. Or you see more complaints about 06 and Rush Adventure because people don't like Elise and Marine.

If look at plots people generally say are lacking, they're usually missing this aspect. Heroes doesn't have anything like this, and that's a game a lot of people would say barely has a plot. Generations is similar. Colors is just Sonic and Tails dicking around with Eggman, no one has a character arc in that. Technically Yacker is around to almost fill the usual character-of-the-day role, but he's barely a character let alone has an arc.

[up][up][up]I think Sonic not liking water and being unable to swim as always been a thing? At least, it's been a thing officially since around Adventure came out. It's not really treated like a flaw in a way that's used within the story though, it's more an acknowledgement of how he sucks with water within the gameplay. Though it looks like according to Wikipedia, supposedly Yuji Naka came up with Sonic being unable to swim because he though that real hedgehogs can't swim.

Sonic not being able to swim is something the people who oversee Sonic's image care a lot about, it actually because an ordeal when Sega was making the first Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games. The devs wanted to put swimming in the game because it's a major Olympic sport, but the higher ups refused because Sonic needs to be able to participate in every sport and Sonic can't swim. Eventually the devs got them to agree to let them do it so long as Sonic where a life jacket when swimming.

Additionally, it's also referenced in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Sonic can swim like everyone in that game, but he's one of four characters that take special unblockable damage while swimming along with Charizard, Incineroar, and Inkling.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69894: Dec 12th 2022 at 9:09:10 AM

[up][up][up] LMAO!!!!

And people deadass argued with me Sage turned good

The thing with a character like Sonic (as written throughout the Adventure era and 2000s) is that he works best working with other characters who are actually the core of the plot.

Let's go through the games, and we could actually start with Sonic 3. There's no dialogue, but there is a clear plotline with character development going on, but it's not Sonic, it's Knuckles. Adventure 1's various plotlines is more about re-introducing every character in this new voice acted environment. As far a "main plot" goes that the final story focuses on, the emotional center is Chaos and Tikal, Sonic is just there to help. Adventure 2 is primarily about Shadow. Rush is about Blaze. The Sonic and final campaigns in 06 are about Elise. Secret Rings is about Shahra. Rush Adventure is about Marine. Riders and Zero Gravity are about Jet. Unleashed is about Chip. Black Knight is about Merlina and the three knights. Sonic himself doesn't change as part of these, but he does face new hardships dealing with each plot and serves as a catalyst for other characters' developments.

I think some feelings about each game's writing can even track to how people like these characters. You see more praise for SA 2 and Rush because people like Shadow and Blaze. Or you see more complaints about 06 and Rush Adventure because people don't like Elise and Marine.

If look at plots people generally say are lacking, they're usually missing this aspect. Heroes doesn't have anything like this, and that's a game a lot of people would say barely has a plot. Generations is similar. Colors is just Sonic and Tails dicking around with Eggman, no one has a character arc in that. Technically Yacker is around to almost fill the usual character-of-the-day role, but he's barely a character let alone has an arc.

This is an entirely case by case basis though; because I literally just got finished talking with people who hated how Sonic was used in the 2000's because he took a backseat role to other characters and prefer his more flawed takes where he takes center stage.

So its definitely not a universally agreed upon concept...as with most things in this series.

That's why I just judge these things on what they're doing; I don't need Sonic to always be some paragon of virtue that helps someone else, but I also don't always need for him to be the central focus either.

My attitude is do what is required of the plot.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 12th 2022 at 12:22:01 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#69895: Dec 12th 2022 at 9:29:23 AM

My point is that making other characters the focus to an extent is what's best for the plot so long as Sonic is written to to always be the most cool, competent person in the room at any given time.

I'm not sure whether some people dislike that as a concept changes anything. Lost World is a game that tried to make Sonic and Tails the focus by giving them character arcs within the story, but I thought it was dumb, boring, and forced. But if I said that's proof that giving Sonic flaws to work a character arc around is an inherently bad as a concept some people would get mad and say I'm cherry-picking.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69896: Dec 12th 2022 at 9:41:11 AM

In an ideal world; we could have a Sonic that grows alongside the other characters in tandem. But that's not what we got.

I don't think either is more right or wrong than the other, because there are stories I like when Sonic has a character arc and there are stories I like when he takes a backseat to someone else.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69897: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:05:57 AM

What I don't get is

  • Mario has Toad, Toadette, Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Wario, Waluigi, Bowser, Bowser Jr, DK, Mini-Mario, and a bunch of characters in the Paper Mario games. Nobody feel like the cast is squandered or overshadowed.
  • Sonic has Shadow, Rouge, Blaze, Cream, Silver, Marine, Big, Amy, Espio, Vector, Charmy, Mighty, and more but for some reason there's a lot of criticism that the franchise doesn't give them enough time to shine.

Did Mario somehow do more with Luigi/Toad/Peach/Wario that people are content? Why isn't there a claim that Mario doesn't grow or develop with his much, much larger roster of characters. Not many seemed to be critical of Pauline disappearing from the games for years, or the Koopa Kids getting upstaged by Bowser Jr, or Rosalina and the Lumas just being there in Galaxy.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#69898: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:08:12 AM

[up]There are a lot of characters that most Mario fans don't really care about. Though, Waluigi is probably not one of them; people clamor for him to appear in a mainline title all the time.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69899: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:16:41 AM

[up][up]

1) Because Mario doesn't focus much on narrative at all. Less expectations.

2) Most of those characters are either irrelevant or have spun off into their own franchises.

Wario hasn't been in a platformer with Mario for almost two decades now.

Its to the point where they're only tangentially related to the series they spun off from originally.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 12th 2022 at 1:17:32 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#69900: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:19:04 AM

[up][up][up][up]Don't take it at a judgement of what makes a Sonic story good or bad then, like how my first sentence read, but instead just as an observation on how Sonic game stories were generally written and how they changed in the 2010s.

[up][up][up]Mario and Sonic stories are written totally differently and attracted different kinds of fans. Mario games almost never involve complex character arcs or anything. The RPGs have more to them, but people don't complain about the RPG characters not appearing again because there's no expectation they will because they never have. They get used properly in their original game and then never again. In general, Mario games are all trying to be completely standalone, while Sonic games are often building up a larger world where you expect the various characters and elements in it to still be around and matter.

I have actually seen Mario fans complain about character appearances, but it's in terms of whether they get to appear in spin-offs (Kart, Party, and sports games), which are fairly simple since those games don't tend to have plots.


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